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Winter Project.......Head!

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SJ
Navigator

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USA
198 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/10/2005 : 21:04:16

The one thing my wife has MANDATED...is that I put a real marine head on the boat. Alas, I currently have a portipotti and it just won't do. Has anyone had the privilledge of installing a head into the boat???? I'm figuring installing a small holding tank under the forwardmost sette on the port side, and all associated plumboing in this area as well....Good/Bad??????

Any ideas, help, comments or critisims????

SJ

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 01/10/2005 : 22:05:15

SJ,

I converted my 1979 C-25 dinette model from Porta-Potty to marine head soon after I got the boat. Here are some highlights of the project, and hopefully some info you might find usefull.
<ul>
<li>Do it right the first time. Really. Think about it. Is this something you want to have fail, or want to be working on again after it's been used? (And you thought she was unhappy about the Porta-Potty!)</li>
<li>Use Sealand OdorSafe hose (or whatever it's called). It can be readily identified by the stunning high price, and by the way it refuses to bend around a corner.</li>
<li>Use double all-SS hoseclamps.</li>
<li>Study the various head plumbing schematics available. I suggest you pay particular attention to the West Marine "[url="http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/WestAdvisorDisplayView?storeId=10001&langId=-1&catalogId=10001&advisor=sanitationsystem.htm#Our%20Favorite%20Method:%20Holding%20Tank%20with%20Multiple%20Discharge%20Options"]Our favorite method[/url]."

</li>
<li>I installed a sort of inverted pyramid-shaped 16gal holding tank in the bow under the V-berth. That area isn't too useful for general storage anyway because of the angles involved.</li>
<li>Do use huge diameter tank vent hose. Two vents are much better than one.</li>
<li>Don't use a flexible bladder for a holding tank.</li>
<li>I used a Raritan PH-II marine head. It was very reasonably priced, and got great reviews from Practical Sailor magazine. It's been in there for maybe five years, and has been very trouble-free.</li>
<li>Bolt the marine head down. (Not just a few sheetmetal screws into the thin fiberglass and plywood shelf.)</li>
<li>Use a vented loop in the intake between the flush pump and the bowl rim. (You may not need a vented loop in the discharge line, depending on where that hose leads.)</li>
<li>Providing for at least the option of flushing with fresh water can greatly reduce odor problems in the future. (I mean pulling fresh water all the way through the intake hose, not just dumping a couple of quarts directly in the bowl.)</li>
<li>Speaking of reducing odors, I strongly prefer Raritan's environmentally friendly holding tank additive to the more toxic approach. Be sure to read and follow the directions for satisfactory results.</li>
</ul>That feels like enough typing for now.

Let us know if you have additional questions.

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

Charlie Vick
Captain

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USA
423 Posts

Response Posted - 01/10/2005 : 22:20:09

Porta potties aren't so bad and IMHO a lot easier to care for than having to pump out a tank, but we've been through this here before. You'll get a whole plathora of comments on this subject.
What is the difference, if you're not the one having to empty it, between flushing a porta potti vs. a marine head? (Maybe having to pump a couple more times?)
The difference isn't so much the actual using it, rather than cleaning it later. (Which how many wives/significant others have to deal with?)
I've never understood the problem people have with the flushing of a porta potti, they sit like any other head.
Sorry, I think this has been a subject which has been blown way out of porportion.
Course I'm just an unmarried guy and my significant other just enjoys sailing and isn't particular about it, so I guess I'm lucky.
You're talking about a 25' sailboat, not your house.
Sorry, no ideas, just comments & critisims.

Edited by - on

ilnadi
Captain

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452 Posts

Response Posted - 01/10/2005 : 23:28:00

Our boat already had a marine head (as mandated by the admiral). We have the holding tank under the v-berth and that seems to be the least usable storage.

A few items:
- the pump handle pieces will fail, make sure repair kits are available.

- as to Leon's suggestion:
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Leon Sisson
 <li>Providing for at least the option of flushing with fresh water can greatly reduce odor problems in the future. (I mean pulling fresh water all the way through the intake hose, not just dumping a couple of quarts directly in the bowl.)</li>
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
On our boat, the same thru-hull serves as the pump-intake and the head sink drain (it is under the v-berth). So if you close the thru-hull and run water into the sink, you can then pump the same fresh water into the head. BTW, this makes it very easy to run anti-freeze through the system (put antifreeze into the H2O tank, pump the sink faucet, then pump the head).

Good luck.

Edited by - on

tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 01/11/2005 : 09:03:39

I prefer the option of tossing a malfunctioning port-a-potty ($59)to cleaning all the mess when a permanent head goes belly up. Aditionally I don't think I've used the port-a-potty in the last several years. The only problem experienced with flushing a port-a-potty is when the flusher doesn't close the seat before flushing.

No not constipated

Val on the hard DAGNABIT

Edited by - on

SJ
Navigator

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USA
198 Posts

Response Posted - 01/11/2005 : 09:45:00

Do I need a vented loop on the discharge side??

Edited by - SJ on 01/11/2005 09:46:14

paking
Deckhand

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USA
24 Posts

Response Posted - 01/11/2005 : 11:36:08

Has anyone thought of one of these self-contained things?

I'm not completely sure it would fit, and I believe it may need a water pump leading to it, but it seems like a good compromise solution. Better then a porta-potty, simpler then a marine head.

link:
http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10001&langId=-1&catalogId=10001&productId=33226

(actually, is $200 cheaper here, but I couldn't get this link to work.)
http://www.defender.com/

Any thoughts?

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 01/11/2005 : 13:18:06

Before you do it, buy Peggie Hall's Book. You can find it at www.catalinaowners.com, see below. It tells you everything you need to know about heads.

In addition to the first detailed post above:

The Raritan II is the best you can buy for the best $ value.
Make the holding tank as BIG as you can, you won't regret it.
The VENT is the most important part. With a good vent, you may not even need to use any chemicals for odor control, ever.
Read Peggie's book.
I agree on checking West's head Advisors. The posted picture may NOT be the best way for you - consider a Y valve, such as the ones being installed on new Catalina boats, instead of needing to turn two valves.
Depending on where you sail, you may not have the pump overboard option.
Read Peggie's book.
Here's a link: http://www.sailboatowners.com/forums/menunew.tpl?fno=31

Edited by - on

At Ease
Admiral

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672 Posts

Response Posted - 01/11/2005 : 13:37:54

Don't know how strong the 'mandate' was...but prior to my C25 I had a 43' houseboat. The marine head was such a pain, I pulled out the head (left the 12v wiring and plumbing) and put in the biggest porta potti I could find. For my situation, in that particular boat, on this lake, at this marina it was the best course of action.

Now that I have sold the houseboat, sold the C25 and bought a C320...I'm right back to a marine head. At least this one is better than the old one.

Bert

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 01/11/2005 : 14:29:16

Okay guys...Scott wasn't asking the pros and cons of different kinds of heads, only for advice on a fixed marine head. My wife also, by far, prefers the fixed head over the old porta-potty as do I.

Edited by - on

At Ease
Admiral

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672 Posts

Response Posted - 01/11/2005 : 17:22:27

I had one similar to the photo above in a motor home many years ago...self contained and ran off the house battery. Worked okay, odor not bad, looks like this has a larger holding tank. My main question would be how does the pump out work...in the MH it drained out the bottom.

One thing Scott will get on this forum...plenty of pros, cons and advice, even if not solicited!

Bert

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 01/11/2005 : 17:50:34

Some of us are but students a the feet of experts and have no opinions.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/11/2005 : 21:28:36

This debate never ends... Perception is everything!

SJ: The questions I have are, has your wife actually used a marine head (not to be confused with a real toilet) in a boat, and has she talked to someone who has had one for a while? We had used them on several boats before buying Passage, and my wife was very pleased with the porta-potti, especially because of the lack of odor, and also since I emptied and cleaned it. I think marine heads are smellier when they're plumbed to use salt water for flushing. My latest portable is the 5-gallon version, which sits higher, has tight-fitting hold-down brackets, and has fixtures for adding pump-out lines (which I haven't used).

But ya gotta do what ya gotta do.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 01/11/2005 21:36:51

Charlie Vick
Captain

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USA
423 Posts

Response Posted - 01/11/2005 : 22:06:34

Don your right.
My point is moot.
I just have a different idea to ponder. Isn't what we're here for?
What is the difference between using a porta potti and using a marine head.
I'm not talking about getting rid of the waste material or the amount the tank will hold, I'm talking about the act of actually using of the head.
I can see installing a holding tank and a marine head if you're taking extended cruises on your boat, but if you're only out for a few days at a time why go to the expense and the trouble of installing a system that could be taken care of with a cheap simple one.
For me sailing is a way to get away from the complications and worries in my life so I try to keep it as uncomplicated and worry free as I can.
I'm just trying to give Scott a different idea to what he's proposing to save him time, trouble and boat units.
I see now I've taken to long to write this and Dave beat me to it.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 01/12/2005 : 09:01:16

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Charlie Vick
 ...What is the difference between using a porta potti and using a marine head?...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

We've had both, porta-potty and fixed, and for some reason my wife equates using a porta-potty to using a porta-john, which she refuses to do. The fixed head is more regular toilet like to her? Go figure, but what the Admiral wants the Admiral gets!

Edited by - on

Charlie Vick
Captain

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USA
423 Posts

Response Posted - 01/12/2005 : 09:16:50

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier

We've had both, porta-potty and fixed, and for some reason my wife equates using a porta-potty to using a porta-john, which she refuses to do. The fixed head is more regular toilet like to her? Go figure, but what the Admiral wants the Admiral gets!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Nuff said.

Edited by - on

SJ
Navigator

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USA
198 Posts

Response Posted - 01/12/2005 : 13:25:28

To answer most of the questions, yes my wife has used a marine head. We both sail on a Frers33 and a J44. She just can't stand the fact that its plastic and that we need to actually carry it off the boat and dump it....What my original question was, has anyone actually undertaken this task of installing a system into the boat? I guess I have to issues. 1- do I need a loop on the discharge side, and 2- where to install the through hulls. I think the best place for the tank is forward, but seems to be a LONG way to pump.

SJ

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 01/12/2005 : 13:59:27

Scott,

I had to replace my marine head two years ago so I have some experience with your questions. Leon has a good explanation and recommendations.

Yes, you do need the vented loop - the loop so the tank won't back up into the cabin at certain angles of heel, and the vent so the system won't develop back-pressue and not pump into the tank. On those C25s that came with a marine head, the holding tank is under the v-berth, and the thru-hull is between the v-berth bulhead and the tank on the bottom of the hull. The installation of the head is pretty straight forward. The tank and fittings may take some time and for-thought. Good luck.

By the way, from a clean-up stand point, you can't beat a marine head. The marina attendant is the only one who has anything to complain about.

AL
GALLIVANT #5801

Edited by - on

John Mason
Admiral

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USA
687 Posts

Response Posted - 01/12/2005 : 19:08:38

The holding tank on my C25 is under the port settee. The head has no vented loop. Just the thru- (to-)hull under the v-berth (drain for the sink and intake for the head). One hose going to the tank and two hoses to the port deck near the shrouds (one vent and one pump-out). Simple, no odor (except immediately after use), no problems. Of course, if the nearest pump-out facility was miles away, that would make it a big problem.

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 01/12/2005 : 19:25:37

SJ,<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I guess I have to issues.

1.) Do I need a loop on the discharge side?

2.) Where to install the through hulls?

3.) I think the best place for the tank is forward, but seems to be a LONG way to pump.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">1.) I guess I should have been more clear about the need (or not) for a vented loop in the discharge hose. If the discharge hose goes directly from the outlet of the head pump to an inlet fitting centered on top of the holding tank (which mine does), then I don't think you really need a vented loop in the discharge side. The need for a loop arises when it's possible for fluid to flow or back-siphon into the head bowl. This is a serious concern, and has caused many unattended boats to sink. As for back pressure building up in the holding tank, properly sized vent(s) should make that impossible.

And speaking of flow restrictions you may not need, the West Marine "Our favorite method" doesn't really need a Y-valve at location 8 in the diagram I posted. I used a plain T-fitting there, and it works fine.

2.) I'd say there's probably more than one right place for the thru-hulls. (If it can ever be said that there's a right place to make big holes in your hull below the waterline!

) Just as someone else mentioned, I use the same thru-hull for head compartment sink drain and marine toilet flush water intake. That's one less hole, and allows flushing with fresh water by closing the seacock and pumping some in the sink. My offshore discharge thru-hull is in the V-berth locker towards the aft end.

3.) The pumping distance from the standard C-25 head location to a holding tank under the V-berth is long, but not too long. No matter what that distance is, it's important to know how many pump strokes of fluid that volume of hose holds.

While your installation is still new and clean, flush with enough clear water to fill that discharge hose all the way to the tank. Then put some dyed water in the bowl, and continue flushing and counting pump strokes while watching for the dye to appear in the tank. (She Who Insists Upon A Real Throne can help with this two-person test.

) Write down how many pump strokes it takes to purge the entire volume of the discharge hose. That's how many strokes you (or Her

Highness) needs to continue flushing after the bowl is washed clean and pumped dry in order to avoid leaving waste in the discharge line. (And you don't want to leave waste in the discharge line.

) Got all that?

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

SJ
Navigator

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USA
198 Posts

Response Posted - 01/13/2005 : 07:55:55

Thats what I needed.....Thanks Leon

Edited by - on

clayC
Navigator

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USA
207 Posts

Response Posted - 01/13/2005 : 13:30:05

Maybe this should be criteria for choosing an Admrial for those here that are single. Take them sailing, use only a bucket. "If she bolts it was never ment to be" (Wayne Cambell)For those of us that are married, Well we will just do as we are told.
Clay C

Edited by - on

MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 01/13/2005 : 18:26:25

"For those of us that are married, Well we will just do as we are told."
Clay C

Clay you can do as you want and then beg for forgivness. That sometimes works too. Sometimes that is.

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 01/13/2005 : 19:22:37

Here's the link to the info I noted above. VERY essential reading and interesting for all (like, if you bareboat):

http://www.c34.org/faq-pages/headodor.pdf

As Leon said, you're better off without a vented loop in the discharge line. You want to keep the length of that hose as short as possible,s ow hy make it longer to go up and down? And it goes to the top (not necessarily the actual TOP flat surface of the tank, but to the top of the tank connecting on the side of the tank). Shouldn't be anything coming back at all, even with an almost full holding tank.

The vented loop goes on the line between the bowl and pump, NOT on the inlet from the thru hull to the pump on the WC.

Good luck, and again remember, the largest holding tank you can find - I reread your first post and you said small. Make it BIG. Anything less and you'll be disappointed about how often you have to empty it and would wish you'd stayed with the PP.

Edited by - on

ronrryan
Admiral

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USA
561 Posts

Response Posted - 01/13/2005 : 20:57:39

Having installed and used both types. I would only add that I read somewhere that every time you make a right angle turn in a 1-1/2" discharge hose, it is equivalent to adding fifteen or twenty feet of hose, or some such horrible figure. Our rule was fifty strokes no matter what. The head was always sweet, good luck, ron srsk Orion, now a sanipotti XL user, in SW FL

Edited by - on

joe keith
1st Mate

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USA
26 Posts

Response Posted - 01/13/2005 : 21:19:52

In terms of alternatives... Anyone have any experience with the Air Head composting toilets?? The claims make it sound like a good way to go. Practical sailor did a review of the Airhead and the Ecolet a while ago. They seemed positive about both but the Ecolet is too big for a C25. The Air head on the other hand is only a bit larger than the 5 gal PP. I don't want to try a $900 experiment until I hear more from people who have tried one.

www.airheadtoilet.com

Edited by - on

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