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Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/12/2005 : 10:11:28

I have submitted this suggestion to the WebMaster, but figured I'd throw it out here to see if there's any support. Webmaster will know right away.....

There's a good community here, and we all like to talk about sailboats, and other things more or less. or even not at all related to sailboats. The degree of "being related" is subjective. On a recent thread, somewhat related, mea culpa, I did pick up on someone who thought we were getting too far off topic, real or perceived. ( I will not expound on the sensitive way this was expressed.) There may be others who don't speak up.

I think we should make an effort to keep as many people as possible happy, so my simple solution is that, in addition to "general","25 specific" and "250 specific" we add a forum called "the foredeck". or "the dock" or whatever, where, within the known no-no parameters one can chat about things definitely less related.......There would be no need to archive, so space requirements would be minimal.......

Anyone?

Oscar
C42 # 76 "Lady Kay" (Ex. C250 WB #618 )
Georgetown MD/Fort Lauderdale FL

Edited by - on

Lightnup
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1016 Posts

Response Posted - 01/12/2005 : 10:50:59

A separate forum (maybe "The Bilge" or "Pump Out") of non-boat related posts would be fine with me. Many sites have them and there is an occasional good joke or interesting thread that will show up that could otherwise be annoying to the mainstream sailor looking for boating info. I've also seen a site with a NB (non-boaty) icon that is always added to NB posts to warn off those who only want to read the boating related posts.

Unless it created more work for Spike, what would be the harm? Those who don't want to see non-boat stuff can just not go there.

My humble opinion, of course.

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1181 Posts

Response Posted - 01/12/2005 : 11:42:29

As a new member, but one who has read this forum religiously for the past year, I would offer another perspective. It has been my experience, from other discussion group sites, that the overall tone of a forum often carries over from one index to another. This site already is pretty loose when it comes to being topic specific and I would fear the addition of a "no-parameter" forum would put the forum administrators in the position of constantly reeling people back into the proper discussion topics. That being said I would not be against it as long as it did not reduce the overall quality of the site. Once you walk down that path it is a long walk back.

Edited by - on

Charlie Vick
Captain

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USA
423 Posts

Response Posted - 01/12/2005 : 12:12:18

It seems to me most of us put "Not sailing related" or something to that effect in our topic lines anyway. If someone chooses to read that thread and then gets sensitive about it because it's not sailing related, which they knew before they started reading it, then they should exit the thread and and not go back. Simple.
This site works great the way it is, not that we shouldn't be moving foreward, but just because one person gets upset because they don't like the direction the thread is going doesn't mean we should start a new forum.
Plus if it's going to cause Spike any more headaches than she already has then I'm not for it.
Not thats its not a good idea Oscar, IMHO I just don't think it's necessary.

Edited by - on

Jeff McK
Captain

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USA
389 Posts

Response Posted - 01/12/2005 : 12:42:58

Oscar,

I agreee with Charlie:
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Not thats its not a good idea Oscar, IMHO I just don't think it's necessary.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/12/2005 : 13:10:24

I'm with Charlie and Joe. I'm not sure how we achieved it, but I think we have a nice balance of sailing information, boat information, and friendly banter among sailors and wannabes--maybe the best on the Web. Minimizing the rules and structure probably contributes to that nice mix.

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 01/12/2005 : 13:18:13

I would think that the forum titled "General" would be the apporpriate place for non-sailing related topics.

We all have been guilty of posting non-sailing realated items at one time or another. Generally, the posting individual is gently, or not so gently, asked to refocus. In other words, we've been doing a pretty good job of policing ourselves.

I suggest that we concentrate on the Tech Tips project for now and address tweeking the forums later.

Al
GALLIANT #5801

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 01/12/2005 : 13:25:48

Creating a new forum is nearly zero work for Spike. None of our forums are moderated. So this would not add any workload.

All our forums are self-moderated. If any member feels offended by a thread, all they have to do is email spike or an officer and we generally yank the thread.

To my knowledge no other internet forum association runs as smoothly as this one which is a credit to our members.

Edited by - on

At Ease
Admiral

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672 Posts

Response Posted - 01/12/2005 : 13:49:33

I do not really care, I'll read another forum if one is there, regardless of what it's called. However, rather than create an additional separate forum, what's wrong with putting all non C25/250 related topics in 'General'...kind of like we do now? Otherwise I see a problem trying to decide whether a borderline subject goes in 'General' or whatever the new one is called. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Bert

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 01/12/2005 : 13:54:26

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Oscar
 ...I think we should make an effort to keep as many people as possible happy, so my simple solution is that, in addition to "general","25 specific" and "250 specific" we add a forum called "the foredeck". or "the dock" or whatever, where, within the known no-no parameters one can chat about things definitely less related...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I think that to keep, as you said, "as many people as possible happy", this site should keep to subjects that fall under the main heading of "Sailor's Forum". To do otherwise leads us down that slippery slope to topics that tend to exclude members rather than include them. I like the fact that things discussed here at this site are, for the most part, nautical in nature. As a matter of fact, for my sanity, I depend on it. I depend on it the same way I depend on Cruising World to not write about red state/bluestate issues, or Sailing World to not write about snowmobile repair, or...well,...you get the idea.

Additionally, let's say this format were adopted for off topic use, I can see that it would soon become a personal blog for those of us who post frequently.

For these reasons, I say we keep this area a "Sailor's Forum" and not go down that slippery slope.

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 01/12/2005 : 13:56:39

Hi Folks,
When I was a member of the Catalina 22 forum, the subject of "off topic" threads came up. What it was decided was that when you have an off topic, meaning non Catalina 22, or sailing related thread to start, you would begin your subject line with "OT" meaning off topic. Then a person would know right away what it was, and chose to not read it right away.
Maybe we could try that. I too wouldn't want to add any work for Spike at all, even if it was to just add a category. For right now, Frank Hopper's suggestion of a Tech Tips section should be the only added work we should be doing.
I also agree that this is the best forum out there. I do get the Catalina 36 forum put out by Sailnet, and they stray off course just like us, but a good group of folks none the less. If I ever buy a bigger boat, Catalina 36 is certainly what I'll look at.

But a question for Oscar: What makes you think that we would have any opinions?

Edited by - on

Charlie Vick
Captain

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USA
423 Posts

Response Posted - 01/12/2005 : 14:04:32

Gee, does this mean I can't ask Frank Hopper about the picture Ipod was getting ready to buy?
I will be using it on the boat.

Edited by - on

Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1772 Posts

Response Posted - 01/12/2005 : 14:43:02

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier

I think that to keep, as you said, "as many people as possible happy", this site should keep to subjects that fall under the main heading of "Sailor's Forum". To do otherwise leads us down that slippery slope to topics that tend to exclude members rather than include them. I like the fact that things discussed here at this site are, for the most part, nautical in nature. As a matter of fact, for my sanity, I depend on it. I depend on it the same way I depend on Cruising World to not write about red state/bluestate issues, or Sailing World to not write about snowmobile repair, or...well,...you get the idea.

Additionally, let's say this format were adopted for off topic use, I can see that it would soon become a personal blog for those of us who post frequently.

For these reasons, I say we keep this area a "Sailor's Forum" and not go down that slippery slope.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Well said, Don ... I concur 100%

Lets stick to what brings us together, i.e. sailing, rather than to open a Pandora's box and discover our differences.

There are plenty of other venues (even "sailing" sites) where people can talk about whatever is on their mind. I think the fact that we police ourselves is one of the things that makes our Forum work as well as it does. I would rather be blissfully ignorant of someone's political leanings, religious affiliation, sexual persuasion, or whatever ... I'd rather keep the focus on sailing and our boats.

Edited by - on

takokichi
Captain

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USA
321 Posts

Response Posted - 01/12/2005 : 14:49:45

Why not just not read things that don't interest you?

On another note, the single best "off-topic" forum on the web is at Sailing Anarchy's "General Anarchy" forum

Edited by - on

Ben - FL
Admiral

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880 Posts

Response Posted - 01/12/2005 : 15:48:30

Before I found this forum I was using the Compuserve Sailor's Forum. It was not restricted to one make of boat. But their forums were cataloged by subject, like "navigation" and "hardware" and one (if I recall correctly) "the saloon" were anything was talked about. On this forum I don't read all the posts. I just scan the topics. If I don't find any interest in it, I simply skip over it. I do recall the "saloon" used to get way out there. Something that happily does not happen here to much in my opinion. If I decide I don't like this place there sure is a whole lot of others out there. But I paid my $20 so I will probably stick around awhile. I don't even mind y'all calling me names when I miss spell stufff.

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 01/12/2005 : 17:43:32

Well, I guess that settles that.....

Never mind.....

Oscar
C42 # 76 "Lady Kay" (Ex. C250 WB #618 )
Georgetown MD/Fort Lauderdale FL

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/12/2005 : 19:00:03

Now Oscar... You can start something here, but you can't stop it!

Your experience with the "toys" thread has occurred before and will again, but notice how quickly things adjusted, and suddenly everything was OK again. Opinions will vary on what's appropriate just as they vary on porta-potties versus marine heads, or the physics of weather helm. The same thing probably happens at your dinner table.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 01/12/2005 19:06:44

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 01/12/2005 : 19:44:25

By the way, please do start a thread about the iPOD. Now they have one for $99 and I need a new music source on Indiscipline.

Edited by - on

frankr
Captain

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256 Posts

Response Posted - 01/12/2005 : 20:18:56

I don't care if there is off topic forum added or not. I guess I'm rather thick skinned and fairly tolerant of what people type (freedom of the keyboard). This is one of the most active forums I belong to. Most of the posts are sailing/boating ... related and those that aren't can be skipped or read. I have not seen any personal attacks like on some other forums - but then again I haven't really seen any really obnoxious posts/replies either. Lighten up folks - no one is forcing anyone to continue down a thread that doesn't pertain to their expectations.

Edited by - on

gnorgan
Admiral

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USA
563 Posts

Response Posted - 01/12/2005 : 22:40:19

OBTW, Oscar, I was thinking after I read your recent thread about using the cell to take a picture, then Bluetooth (?) to laptop, and eventually onto the website could be used to get some "almost live" pictures sent to folks "on the hard", as Val puts it. Jim Baumgart is just the sort to make this a reality so anyone on the forum could see the big fish he just caught!!

Or he could finally show all of you that I don't really ever look at the trailing end of his boat when we're out on the Pacific racing each other.

What he doesn't realize is that I'm just fine tuning my tall / wing and I occasionally need to get behind him to evaluate my progress.

This whole idea is verrrrry interesting. Imagine being able to check into the forum for live feeds from all across the country. It might be snowing in Michigan but you come along with us for a nice on the Pacific Ocean.
Tech types are out there showing us oldies the way, right?
My vote? Let it ride for awhile while we while away our time wisely updating/upgrading the tech section.
Bye. And keep those tech ideas coming.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/12/2005 : 22:50:17

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by gnorgan
 ...Or he could finally show all of you that I don't really ever look at the trailing end of his boat when we're out on the Pacific racing each other.

What he doesn't realize is that I'm just fine tuning my tall / wing and I occasionally need to get behind him to evaluate my progress.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Shall I talk about our little tacking duel going out of the Mission Bay inlet, Gary?

Can you say "Horizon Job"?

On the other hand, I was glad you were behind us going home(smoldering).

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 01/12/2005 22:56:00

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 01/13/2005 : 01:18:34

hmmm, "mast-cam"?

Oscar
C42 # 76 "Lady Kay" (Ex. C250 WB #618 )
Georgetown MD/Fort Lauderdale FL

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 01/13/2005 : 05:38:41

Because I grew up adoring the Smothers Brothers and followed their censorship battle with CBS in the sixties, I've always been opposed to censorship. Translated, that means I feel people should be able to post here whatever they want, and if any of us are offended we can say so, as I did in a recent thread.

At the same time, it does seem to me that the coherence of this site is eroding. It's getting more chatty -- more distracted by postings that are less about sailing issues than personal commentary. For that I grieve, and frankly find myself less and less attracted to the site. Perhaps that's inevitable: there are a relatively limited number of subjects to be covered, and after four years of being here I feel as though I've seen most of the subjects covered repeatedly (swing keels, biminis, outboard choices, alcohol stoves -- you know the list). So, since most questions can be answered in the archives or Tech Tips, we seem to be (dare I say it) devolving into a chat room. Maybe that's inevitable, maybe not. In any case, I've determined never to be a "Master Marine Consultant;" am working to reduce my "average posts per day;" to sail more, read more, love more and stare at computer and TV screens less and less. I want the people I communicate with the most to be ones I can hug.

That's both valediction and benediction. Do whatever you wish, friends: I just won't be around much to watch.

Brooke

Edited by - on

Charlie Vick
Captain

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USA
423 Posts

Response Posted - 01/13/2005 : 08:47:24

There are some of us out there (me included) that are stuck to our computers (a mac and a pc) all day not by choice, though I could always go out and find something else to do but since I'm part owner I don't think so, but the fact we have families to support. I don't even have a computer at my house and no land line either. I hug my family and tell them I love them every chance I get, so we do have lives other than here.
The main reason I started coming here was to find information on my Catalina. This hasn't changed. What has changed is the fellowship I now enjoy with the other members here and I won't appologize for that.
I hope to retire within the next few years and hope to go sail the world and you probably won't hear from me as much (lucky you) but I will always try to keep in touch as others who have gone on to different or larger sailboats.
To me this site isn't just about sailboats, its about the fellowship of sailors who have come together because of their love of sailing.
If we get off the topic of sailing to read about someones personal experience, good or bad, so be it. I think we'd be pretty sorry people if we told them "no you can't talk about that here its not sailing related".
To me thats what fellowship is about and I won't appologize for that either.

Edited by - on

Scooter
Navigator

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USA
228 Posts

Response Posted - 01/13/2005 : 09:40:18

2 cents since you asked:

If I don't want to read a thread I skip it. If I have specific questions I do a search. If I can't find an answer I like, I post a question. Even though a subject "was" covered, things change (suppliers, methods, etc...). There's always a "Why didn't I think of that?"

A different forum "section" or not? I don't see a need myself. The only benefit I see from the comments above is storage. If that forum isn't archived then that may help search times since less to search through?? If the post stays on subject then I can skip the post easier.

The worst I see in this forum now is side comments during discussions about specific items. These "one liners" can be entertaining though(the good ones). Most of the time they are kept short and add "flavor" to this forum. Don't stop.

It looks to me that most people stay on track. Ususally you can tell in the first few sentences if they are wandering. If I see that and don't want to read I simply move on.

Some wandering is always going to happen.

********
I would make one suggestion. Maybe every so often have an "etiquette" post. Or a permanent heading. This might say things like:
1. "Try" to stay on subject of the thread title. If subject changes (completely) it makes it harder for those searching title subjects to find the item they're looking for. If you want to change the subject, start a new thread and reference it in the existing thread for those who want to follow.
2. Be nice.
3. If subject is "non-sailing" then note it in title of post. (or put it in a "Bilge Water" forum if created)
4. Be nice.

Maybe also a list of short cuts for newbies:

BTW- By the way
IMHO - In my humble opinion
NB - Non-Boaty
OT - Off Track

These are just samples of what I mean. Common courtesy. Not rules.

Some people may be new to forums or grew up in a fall out shelter and may not know. It took me a while to actually go to some of the other section on this web page like Tech Tips, Links, etc... I started looking there after reading a thread.

I did find this item below but it's located under
"Information for first time users">"First things first">"The basics". Should we have a "refresher" post now and then? or Make this easier to find?
**************************
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***********************************
Don't want to (absolutely, positively DO NOT want to) force anybody to follow anything. Just think if there are some "accepted" norms, more people might follow them. If somebody is being "ugly" maybe they can be contacted off line (by those offended) and explained what is not nice. If they still insist on being ugly then that's who they are and we deal with it.

What is an "accepted" norm is another matter and for another post.

Scott

Edited by - on

Spike
Navigator

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141 Posts

Response Posted - 01/13/2005 : 15:53:37

Ok. First of all, adding another forum isn't much work. But I've been here almost 2 years and I've only had to moderate about 5 times. And usually only in the winter time when there is less sailing. I guess people don't get enough sunshine and are grumpier. The people on this forum are the nicest people if have "met".

I think if people would be a bit more specific in the subject line, then people could decide before going to the thread. For example, Oscar seems to like a little suspense in his subject by only giving half of the subject line and the rest in the post. Even the title of this post should be more clear. Is this an opinion poll about sailing, equipment, or the forum? I almost didn't read it because I don't have much of an opinion about boats. I usually cruise the forum for forum related issues.

I'd say don't bother with an "Around the Dock" section, just think about your fellow forum mates and be more specific in the subject line. And definitely don't use the General section as non-sailing related, because that is where lots of good general sailing information that is not necessarily C25 or C250 specific belongs. Information about regatta news, fleet rendezvous, fun sailing stories, and general questions all go under the heading of "General".

Are there any other forum related posts that I should read?

Spike

Edited by - on

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