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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Honda Idling Woes

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Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1181 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/31/2005 : 11:43:06

My 1999 Honda 8HP 4 cycle has an annoying problem of dying when idling at inopportune times. This happens whether it is in gear or not. I cleaned the carb, changed the plugs, adjusted the valves, replaced the fuel filter, impeller and lower bearing with no glory. It runs great at higher RPM's and adjusting the idle higher helps but I don't like shifting gears at the higher idle.
The one mistake I know I made is I did not blow the carb out with compressed air when I cleaned it. I used a carb dip and sprayed it out with carburetor cleaner. I was wondering if someone may be willing to share another avenue to follow as well.

Joe Wergers
Utopia
Fleet 7/Oceanside, CA
78 C25 FK/SR #381

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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3285 Posts

Response Posted - 01/31/2005 : 12:07:32

Happens to me all the time and the fix is very simple. I'll have to make a tech tip about this!

The idle jet is fouled. It can be caused by a drop of water or a little salt, sand, etc. It can happen the minute after the carb is rebuilt or after 6 months of running fine. The fix can be done in the slip or even while drifting in the harbor.

Take cover off motor.

The idle jet is recessed in a hole on the right side of the carb. It has a funny three sided slot for the screwdriver.

Note how far jet is screwed into the hole. Getting it back in to the precise spot IS NOT VITAL. But note the approximate depth.

Remove idle jet being very careful not to drop it or the small spring over board.

Want to clear the main jet at the same time? If so, remove the main jet. Its just forward of the idle jet and not screwed into a hole. It does not have a spring. If the main jet is fouled the motor will idle but not run well at 1/2 throttle or more.

Put jets into a cup. Spray with B12 Chemtool (carb cleaner). Wipe with a clean rag. Keep clean.

Spray B-12 Chemtool (Carb cleaner) into the holes where the jets were. Put motor down into water. Start. It will run briefly and very roughly on the carb cleaner. This is sucking the dirt or water out of the jet passages.

Reinsert jets. Be careful, etc.

Start motor. Should be running fine. Should now idle fine. If not, repeat.

While securely tied up in the slip, put into reverse. (I like reverse to put a load on the motor, because it produces less thrust than forward).

Adjust idle jet, screwing it a little bit in and out until it runs smooth and more importantly the motor accelerates evenly from dead idle to the "Start" setting on the throttle.

Put motor back to idle (still in reverse). Let it warm up. Adjust idle speed so that the RPM is comfortable and its running smooth. I like to set it just a little higher than factory.

I 100% promise that this will fix the problem. As a precaution, clean the jets once per month. Check the oil at the same time. Make sure the engine area is clean. Wipe up any salt residue. Spraying carb cleaner into the air intake will NOT fix the problem!!!

Its simple, it takes just 2 minutes, and you should be able to do it on the water incase you injest water on a rough day and need the motor to idle in order to get into your slip.

Keep in mind, its unfortunate that the Honda idle jet is so fine it can get fouled by a drop of water. However, Honda put the jet in a very accessible place so its quick and easy to service. Thank goodness its not on the bottom of the carb.

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1181 Posts

Response Posted - 01/31/2005 : 14:54:34

Thanks Jim for the detailed explanation. Some how I knew and old Honda guy like yourself would have a remedy. If I can get that idle right I'll have to plan a trip down to Mission Bay and visit the fleet.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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3285 Posts

Response Posted - 01/31/2005 : 17:25:42

Come late spring or early summer perhaps the 7th Fleet will plan a 3 day weekend to Oceanside harbor or even Dana Point.

Meanwhile, you are invited down to Mission Bay any time. I can help you get a guest slip on our dock or there is a free anchorage. If you use that and have a dinghy I'll loan a key for our dock facilities.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 01/31/2005 : 17:27:41

PS. We have very nearly the same boat - you're hull number 383 and I'm 398 plus we have the same motor.

I see you've the blue deck, mine is orange.

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

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1181 Posts

Response Posted - 01/31/2005 : 18:18:44

Thanks for the offer. I have been trying to put together a weekender down to Mission Bay so the kids can spend an evening at Belmont Park but the regulation that boats anchored in MB have someone on board 24/7 was an issue. A slip would alleviate that concern. I'll try to set a date and catch up with you. Might have to wait until the water warms up. If I can be of any help to you guys in Oceanside don't hesitate to ask. There are no anchorages in Oceanside, just guest slips. I believe Dana Point has both but you cannot reserve slips and they are hard to come by in the warm weather months.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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3285 Posts

Response Posted - 01/31/2005 : 19:08:41

If there is such a regulation (someone on board 7x24) in Mariner's Basin I'm not aware of it. If there is, its also not enforced. In Mission Bay, the MB lifeguard boat comes by every day at sundown and checks your boat in. You can only stay 72 hours in any 7 day period. Might be good to be onboard 30 min before and after sundown.

Sometimes in summer we anchor there and spend the day on the beach, no one is on board and no one is checking.

That said, you'll probably enjoy a $30/night guest slip at L dock, home of Fleet 7 much more. You can still motor over to the anchorage, drop the hook, and dinghy or kayak to the beach with the rollercoaster (or I'll drive you over in my van).

Edited by - on

Keith D.
Navigator

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USA
233 Posts

Response Posted - 01/31/2005 : 21:10:24

Jim
The three-day weekend sounds great. It would be best if it isn’t on a holiday weekend because most of those are already planned for. I will be looking for a post on the date.

Edited by - on

gnorgan
Admiral

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USA
563 Posts

Response Posted - 01/31/2005 : 23:34:41

Hey, Joe, is your "Utopia" the boat that Don and Laura Sandling used to own? How long have you owned it? Any idea how Don and Laura are doing? We used to have our boat slipped in Oceanside about half way down D dock with our stern facing the restaurant. Pulled ours out for a few years then decided to put it back in on L dock in Mission Bay. More expensive but worth it....
Hope you can sail down to Mission Bay and we can definitely sail with you and stay over in Mariner's Cove. Our newly formed Fleet 7 is still small but friendly. Charlie from Ridgecrest has a new C250 and we consider him (and his boat) part of our fleet so you might like to join us and call yourself a Fleet 7 member. I know that Oceanside did not have a fleet when I was there so you might be feeling kind of lonely. Maybe Fleet 7 needs to "broaden" its area of influence???
Jim spoke of us sailing to Oceanside.....definitely will happen as I've sailed several times to San Diego and back when in Oceanside.
We'll be in touch and coordinate something soon.
BTW, Jim's fix for the idle jet works every time. He did mine about a month ago so go try it. It works!!

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

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1181 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2005 : 10:31:08

Hi Gary,
Laura and Don are my sister and brother-in-law. Brent Freeman and I went in as partners a year ago last January when Don's obsession with dirt-bikes overtook his obsession with sailing. They are both doing great and Don has been a great help this past year getting me fully acquainted with Utopia's idiosyncricies. Between Don's advice and this sites enormous contribution I have made the trip to Dana Point once and actually took the wife and daughters (3) to Avalon last year.
Hoping to do a voyage to Newport, Mission Bay and the Isthmus this year if I can squeeze it all in. Fleet 7 sounds like a good fit as I do not believe there is another 25 or 250 in Oceanside. At least not slipped. How does one go about joining? I'll say Hi to Don and Laura for you.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2005 : 11:26:31

Joe W. - you've just joined Fleet 7! There are no dues and no rules except 1 - you have to actually join this National Association.

I'll add you to the email distribution list. Use my forum profile to email me and give me your email and cell phone number or a way to reach you.

By the way, people who don't even own C25 or C250 are welcome to join us on our various cruises, events and fun races - whatever boat - even, gasp, power boats, Mcgreggors or even Hunters.

Edited by - on

kbq
1st Mate

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USA
99 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2005 : 14:21:43

Sloop -

The newer Hondas have the jets "hidden" - you have to tear the carb down to get to them.

Sigh.

I put a 10 micron filter on my gas line, and - along with gas treatments, and flushing the carb bowl when done - it seems to keep the problem at bay.

I just *love* being surrounded by a bunch of ski boats on a breezy day, moving up to the launch dock, just to have the motor die. Yum!

Kevin
"wait for me"
250wk #751

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1181 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2005 : 15:41:24

Kevin,
I hope you mean by "newer Honda's" the ones with the rounded engine covers. Mine is the older type with the squared off engine cover. The newer types have a different fuel hose hookup also. Haven't had a chance to try Jim's fix yet but I'll know soon enough.
Joe
New

Old

Edited by - on

kbq
1st Mate

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USA
99 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2005 : 17:00:17

Joe - yup, the rounded cover. Seems the older ones are *much* easier to work on!

Kevin
"wait for me"
250wk #751

Edited by - on

gnorgan
Admiral

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USA
563 Posts

Response Posted - 02/02/2005 : 00:26:54

Yes, do say hi to Don and Laura for me and my wife, Susie. We cruised to Two Harbors with them a bunch of summers ago. Left at midnight with no moon and overcast using the Honda 8 and tiller pilot. Fell asleep for a time while following Don and Laura. My wife was asleep down below. Lost about 45 minutes as best I could tell. Their boat (now yours) had "mysteriously" moved way ahead of ours in a blink of my eyes so I immediately knew that I'd napped a bit

GPS unit did the job, though...hehehe

Took us 11.5 hours to get to Two Harbors. Very lucky nothing happened along the way.
Dues? What dues? You're in but Jim and I agreed that the only requirement would be to join the national association but you can see the benefits already. Speaking of the national dues, I think mine is about due also. Where's that checkbook?
Tell Don to go slowly on his dirtbike. Falling off a boat doesn't hurt much....doing the same from a dirtbike in motion is something else.
Hope to sail alongside Utopia again soon.
Living and working up here in Hemet, wishing I was sailing off San Diego instead.

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1181 Posts

Response Posted - 02/02/2005 : 00:35:15

Why can't it ever be easy?
I went down to Utopia after work to try out Jim's fix and , lo and behold, no idle jet. I flushed the bowl and main jet but that did not solve the idle problem. Back to the house and pulled out the Honda shop manual and Honda has pressed a metal plug into the hole above the needle to keep owners from messing with the preset EPA emission setting. They did publish a way around it though which they caution you are never to do.

1. Center punch the pilot screw plug.
2. Attach a drill stop to a 5/32" drill 1/8" from the end of the drill and drill a hole into the plug.
3. Thread a self-tapping 4mm screw into the drilled plug and continue turning the screw until the plug rotates with the screw.
4. Pull on the screw head with pliers to remove the plug.
5. Use compressed air to clean the area around the pilot screw before removal.
6. After removal lightly seat the pilot screw and back out 2-1/2 turns.
7. Drive a new plug into the hole. (Yeah, right)
Looks like I'll have to wait for the weekend to try this one. I would guess Jim's plug was pulled sometime and never replaced.

Edited by - Sloop Smitten on 02/02/2005 11:53:42

atgep
Master Marine Consultant

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1009 Posts

Response Posted - 02/02/2005 : 04:37:06

They likely get extra points from the EPA for making a "Zero emission" outboard! It cannot produce smog if it is not running. Makes me appreciate "old smokey" the sailmaster.

Has anyone tried clearing the jet with suction using one of those suction thingies used to clear baby noses?

Tom.

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stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 02/02/2005 : 22:45:00

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I'll have to make a tech tip about this!<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
quoted from JIMB517

Do you know if this applies to an older style (approx '97) Honda 4 stroke 9.9

LaBarca

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 02/03/2005 : 00:16:25

I would be pretty sure that it does. Mine is an older style Honda 8. I can't believe that the idle jet is very different.

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1181 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2005 : 20:10:32

Finally made it back down to Utopia today and drilled out the plug covering the idle jet. Followed Jim's procedure and the engine now idles smoothly in gear and out. Thanks a bunch Jim. If you write up the tech tip please include the plug removal with it. The plug is a solid brass plug 1/8" thick and came out rather easily using the procedure I provided above. The idle screw sets another 1/8" or so below the bottom of the plug so if you are not going to replace the plug you could drill the plug out entirely. Here's a picture of the plug. It is just to the right of the slotted main jet.

Edited by - on

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