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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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gennaker

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/06/2005 : 00:02:41

Sailed my friends S2 today in very light air. We hoisted his gennaker for the downwind run. It tacks at the foot, and has a single hank near the head. The rest of the sail flys free. Its a huge chute. It made a huge difference downwind. 3 questions

(1) whats the difference between this and an asym spinnaker?

(2) the sail is about 0.5 oz or maybe 0.75 oz (very light). What would the max wind speed be?

The boat reaches very nicely with this sail, also works cool up to just shy of dead down wind. We sailed with the main sheeted flat.
(3) Would you try to get the main prevented out on the other side for downwind? (by the lee, just a little)?

Indiscipline 1978 FK SR #398

Edited by - on

MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2005 : 00:07:33

I think from what I have read that gennaker, assymetrical and a few other names are all the same sail.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2005 : 10:11:52

Like Matt, it is my understanding that the terms gennaker, cruising spinnaker, and asymetrical spinnaker are all used to describe the same sail. Within this sail type, the differences lie in the flatness or fullness of the cut of the sail.

Now you say that your friends gennaker has a hank at the head...This might put this sail in the drifter category which I believe can be flown hanked to the forestay or flown free.

Edited by - on

John G-
Admiral

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793 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2005 : 10:36:53

Jim,
I think it is a matter of shape and how it tacks or gibes. I have a “drifter”. It is made from spinaker material flies free of the forestay and is a huge sail it comes halfway back of the cockpit. But in shape it looks like a very full Genoa and I tack it inside the forestay like a jib. It can sail somewhat upwind, certainly more than a "gennaker" or "asym". Many of the “gennakers” or “asyms” gibe outside or ahead of the forestay.
It’s great sail in Long Island Sound where we have very little wind in August. I can keep sailing when many boats are in irons. It must be taken down in over 6 knots of wind. I run the tack through a block at the bow and all the way back to the cockpit so I can “float” it down and shove it into the cabin singlehanded and be on my way with my roller furling 150% Genoa as the wind picks up.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2005 : 11:42:12

It does get a bit confusing and maybe some one with sail expertise can shed some light as its an interesting question.

I'm thinking gennaker and drifter/reacher are more similar than a gennaker and cruising chute.

A drifter/reacher is more or less a 55-65% genoa of light materiel and limited to 8 knots of wind whereas a cruising chute is cut considerably fuller.

A drifter/reacher appears fuller because of the use of a tack line to ease the luff off wind while able to harden the luff for a close reach.

Perhaps in part the name has something to do if it tacks fore or aft of the stay? Who knows?

Edited by - on

At Ease
Admiral

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672 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2005 : 12:23:26

Here is a good site for definitions:

http://www.marisafe.com/resources/boatdictionary.asp?vmcid=41&vmpid=16

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2005 : 13:43:57

Well...that answer that... I was wrong... but its not the first time, nor will it be the last.

A gennaker is a trademarked name for a production of cruising spinnakers.

So, unless the trademark is on the cruising spinnaker...it ain't no gennaker... it is simply a plain ole cruising spinnaker.

I'd argue for cutting out the word gennaker from the sail descriptions because it is confusing.... but then again, take a break and have a coke...but er, all I got is Nehi grape.

Edited by - on

Charlie Vick
Captain

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USA
423 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2005 : 15:51:39

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">and have a coke...but er, all I got is Nehi grape.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Super Bowl Sunday and all you have is grape Nehi?

Shame, shame!

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2005 : 16:58:41

Charlie,

Ahhh football, I threw the towell in on pro football when Jerry Jones treated Tom Landry so badly... swore I'd had it with pro football as long as he was an owner... and I'm that kind of a guy, I keeps me swears. When Jerry Jones is no longer an owner... I might take another look see. Did I lose....not at all, haven't missed it one bit.

btw, I continue to enjoy high school and college football

Edited by - on

Charlie Vick
Captain

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USA
423 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2005 : 20:33:27

Arlyn, I'm right there with you. I just figure most people are glued to the tube tonight drinking and eating.
I really don't care about pro sports anymore. Really don't care about college sports, (except when the Razorbacks are on a roll!) though the college players at least play with their hearts and not their pocketbooks. (I know, a romantic way of looking at it)
Gave it up along time ago when I figured out watching an excitingly close game was stressing me out and taking years off my life when it really didn't have any influence on me or my family and just didn't matter to me.
I hope its a sign of getting wiser, not just older.

Edited by - on

PZell
Admiral

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USA
548 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2005 : 00:35:46

It ain't the game. It's the party.

Edited by - on

matsche
Captain

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USA
280 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2005 : 07:48:00

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Arlyn Stewart
 Ahhh football, I threw the towell in on pro football when Jerry Jones treated Tom Landry so badly...

btw, I continue to enjoy high school and college football
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I threw in the towel when the Raiders moved their team to San Fran in the 70s. It was then I first realized that pro ball is nothing but a big business subsidized by public funds (build us an arena or we'll leave!).

College football is where it's at! Go Gators!!!

My apologies for being off topic.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2005 : 11:51:00

Whatever you call it, I want one! Appears easier to singlehand than a symmetrical spinnaker.

Boat gybes or tacks by bringing the clew through the inside. A little help from the foredeck crew is required.

What wind speed would be the max for a 0.5 oz asym?

Anyone want to trade a 0.5 oz symmetrical (in perfect condition) for a gennaker? Or could I fly my sym as an asym?

PS.

Spent the game sailing. I listened on the radio. Winds were good but steep 5 foot + short period seas were interesting.

Edited by - JimB517 on 02/07/2005 11:56:05

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2005 : 12:24:40

Jim, if it tacks similar to a genoa, then the sail was a drifter/reacher, though I'm not ruling out that asymmetrical cruising chutes have never been tacked that way. It could be that if an asymmetrical were run on a jib halyard, that it could be tacked conventionally but cruising chutes are normally run on a spinnaker halyard and tacked forward around the headstay.

Bill Holcomb has both a drifter and asymmetrical and says that he uses the drifter far more than the asymmetrical.

He inspired me to go drifter and I've been happy with it.

On the 250, it will fill in less than two mph wind and can fly to about 8 mph so it is limited to light air conditions. It of course will drive the boat much better in light air than a 110.

For the 150 genoa equipped C25 on a furler, it may be a harder decision between a drifter and asymmetrical as the drifter at 65% wouldn't be a huge amount of sail area gain and a poled out genoa bridges the some of the performance gap.

One last consideration is the furler itself if you run one. Furlers which have a hallyard turning lead down on the mast, don't allow a drifter to be hauled fully aloft and then tack properly. The cdi which leaves the jib halyard free are ideal for a drifter. A furler with a turning lead on the mast, will require a light air sail to be tacked forward of the stay on a spinnaker halyard.

Light air sails are both functional and fun to fly because of the color. Have fun.

Drifters do not use poles

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 02/07/2005 12:27:56

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2005 : 13:57:43

Well, on the S2, the sail is hanked (head and foot, 2 hanks only) on the forestay. The sheets are led through the normal blocks, although they are moved aft of the winches.

On Indiscipline, I have a very old roller furling which is hoisted using the jib halyard. There is a regular wire forestay. The roller sail has a wire sewn inside. I can drop the whole thing and run regular, hanked on, sails, which is what I've been doing lately. The boat sails so much better with my 110, 135 and 155 laminate jibs.

My boat's rigged for symmetrical spinnaker, though I've never used it. I've got pole, mast track, pole hoist, and spinnaker halyard (which doubles as a spare jib halyard). The boat is also rigged with 2 genoa tracks (one inside) plus special turning blocks for the spinnaker sheets. I'm a little afraid to tackle this sail single handed. After my experience on the S2 I may try it, though. Can't be much worse than poling out the genoa single handed.

If I was to buy a used asym, what would be the measurements?

Edited by - on

Scotd
Navigator

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USA
136 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2005 : 20:21:24

The Gennaker is still a hand-full. You really have to watch the winds. But its sure fun too.

Edited by - on

Jeff McK
Captain

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USA
389 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2005 : 08:25:34

As previously noted, Gennaker (TM) is actually a trademark for the North Sails version of the asymmetrical/cruiser/drifter sail.

I can attest to Scotd's comments: lots of fun but requires a bit of extra watching. I sprung for their highly rated (Practical Sailor) snuffer at the time of purchase. More BU's, but it really makes life much easier for setting/dousing/repacking.

Scot: what kind of wind did you have when that photo was taken? Judging from the wave shape at the waterline you were probably making good time.

Jim: I think a preventer of some sort would be wise, especially if the breeze is a bit fluky in direction.

Come on, springtime!

Edited by - on

Scotd
Navigator

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USA
136 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2005 : 08:46:44

The wind was at about 7-10 that day, I don't have a snuffer, so my wife had to release the Jib halyard while I tried to grab and stuff. I agree on needing more crew and experienced crew at that. I need to add the snuffer to my wish list, but I really do love the comments I get from the other boaters when they see it comming down the lake. ( Was that you with the big beautiful sail? )

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2005 : 10:50:16

Great photo and I'm itching to try it.

Edited by - on

Jeff McK
Captain

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USA
389 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2005 : 15:01:14

The snuffer is really nice for dousing when short-handed or light on crew expertise: Just let the main blanket the sail a bit, pull it down as you ease the sheet (some folks "blow" the tack instead), lower the halyard, unhook the sheets & halyard & drop her down the forward hatch. You can repack below.

North has a nice CD on all these techniques. Be sure to ask for a copy when you get the snuffer as it also covers attaching the snuffer to the sail.

One trick I picked up from a friend: Since there isn't a huge amount of pull on the sail, I put plastic snap shackles (Lewmar C-snaps) on the sheet lines where they hook to the clew. Less weight to pull down the sail plus the deck & your head won't get damaged by impacts.

So far they seem to be holding up OK, but are only one season old.

Scot: My sail has a similar pattern as yours, but the command section chose white, medium blue & teal. Looks very cool.

Edited by - on

ronrryan
Admiral

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USA
561 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2005 : 16:04:51

We used to have a drifter years ago and I have a vague recollection of leading the sheet to a snatch block on the end of the boom, I guess while reaching. Dont remember why, exactly, but it seemed like a good idea at the time, FWIW, ron srsk Orion SW FL

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Jeff McK
Captain

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USA
389 Posts

Response Posted - 02/09/2005 : 07:12:27

Ron,

I assume you are referring to the main boom. I've never heard of that setup. Maybe they were trying to use it like giant whisker pole in extremely light air to keep the clew extended? My only concern would be the blanketing effect from the main blocking the wind.

Edited by - on

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