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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Why not 15 hp?

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seastream
Navigator

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USA
242 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/07/2005 : 07:32:33

We're moving our boat from a lake to a river with ocean access, with it's attendant tides & currents. We're considering retiring our '87 'Rude 9.9 two stroke after the season (reliable but old). I know that 5-10 hp is enough to push a C25 around at hull speed. 10 hp 4 stroke motors seem to weigh anywhere from 85-115 pounds. A few 15 hp 4 strokes weigh close to their 10 hp brothers (Yamaha 15 w/20" shaft @ 99 lbs, for example). I'm not looking for more speed but wondering if the extra hp might be useful if I'm ever caught heading in against the tides or in rough seas.

Seastream

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atgep
Master Marine Consultant

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1009 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2005 : 07:48:36

One thing to consider is the tuning of the engine. I have used the 9.9 and 15 hp Johnsons. There are significant differances between the two. The block is the same as is the overal size.
I found the 15 had a pretty weak mid range with a strong top end. The 9.9 was much more adjustable in the midrange. I would think it is the midrange that we need the most. Your dealer should be able to produce hp/torque curves for both engines. Sometimes the smaller engine will run better for our purpose.
I used these engines on a small zodiac and the 15 was the hands down winner. The boat/motor and and myself weighed in at 210 lbs. It was fun.

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matsche
Captain

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USA
280 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2005 : 08:02:19

How many skiers do you want to pull?

No, seriously, my C25 came with a 15hp 2 stroke Mariner. There was no way I could ever use the extra horsepower. I think what is more important is the torque of an engine as reflected in it's prop size. I don't know about the Yamaha line, but in the Nissan/Tohatsu line, the 9.8 and 15 hp 4 strokes have about the same size props. In short, I don't think you're buying yourself anything with the extra horses.

Also, as a shameless plug for the Nissan/Tohatus see [url="http://www.tohatsu.com/news.html"]TOHATSU OUTBOARDS RECEIVES MOTORBOATING AWARD[/url]

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lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2005 : 08:12:55

If you are definately going to get a new Yamaha, the 25" Extra Long Shaft 9.9 High Thrust is much better suited to the Catalina 25 then the 15 hp model would be. Checking the Yamaha website, I see that their 15 hp 4-stroke is not available with either the 25" shaft or the High Thrust prop and gearcase. You need the 25" shaft to match the high transom of the Catalina 25, and the big 11.5" x 9.5" prop and 3:1 gearing on the 9.9hp High Thrust motor gives you much better power range at the slow hull speed of a sailboat. The big advantage of the 9.9 motor over the 8 hp is alternator output: the 9.9 has double the battery charging capacity of the 8, and I now wish I had bought the 9.9 instead of the 8.

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Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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1893 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2005 : 09:14:19

seastream

I concur with Larry. The Yamaha Extra Long Shaft 9.9 High Thrust is probably the best outboard currently available for the C-25. The big, slow, low pitch prop deep in the water is much more important than peak HP. I have used the Yamaha extra long shaft 9.9 high thrust motor on my C-25 in the ocean and in inlet currents. It is more than up to the task. The thrust in reverse is truly gratifying, which isn't something you'll hear said of very many outboards on sailboats.

-- Leon Sisson

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sweetcraft
Admiral

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USA
816 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2005 : 12:42:03

Well what if you were repowering and chose the 9.9 Honda. Your dealer quoted a boat show price that saved you hundreds so you ordered. After a time when no motor came you called and they said we will give you the same price on a 15 hp with remote, powerlift and high thrust because it is in stock, what should you do? Well the 15 is on the boat with also a panel with warning lights and horn for oil and temp and a tack and switch for the powerlift on the panel and on the engine. The trial run this season will be interesting with all the discussion on the forum of things to look for during sailing and motoring, the difference in weight is 18lbs so maybe I can use less fuel than the 79 Chrysler 10 hp that lasted 25 years.
Jim Sweet

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SJ
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USA
198 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2005 : 21:21:07

I agree that the 9.9's are the best choice, however I walked into a 15HP last year....Little old man used it 3 times two years ago and decided that it wasn't big enough for his needs. The dealer gave me a killer deal on this one. $895.00 for a basiclly brand new 15HP. Sounds a bit fishy, I know but hey two years running and never a glitch...All in all unless you find a sugar sweet deal like I got, go with the 9.9

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Greg Jackson
1st Mate

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84 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2005 : 21:25:33

The reasons stated were 1) coming in against a tide current and, 2) high seas. You can get a tiny bit more speed with larger hp, but the speed increases come along with pushing the bow way up, the stern down, and a much bigger wake. The bit of speed would help against a current.

If the seas are high you're screwed anyway because the motor will come out. High seas normally come in combination with wind and you're much better off to be sailing. You'll simply have more control of the boat under a storm sail than burning up the motor. High seas without winds are normally just rollers, nothing breaking. High breaking waves without wind mean you're in the surf approaching a beach. At that point your PFD, flares, and VHF are probably more useful than the extra 5 hp.

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Capt. Kurt
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185 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2005 : 13:45:12

I purchased the new '04 Yamaha 9.9 25" XL high torque OB. It is very quiet and has excellent torque for low speed control. Electric start is nice too and it sips fuel. Hull speed is reached at about 1/2 throttle, 15hp would be overkill, plus it doesnt come with the high torque prop.

Kurt
#818 C250WK "Tortuga"

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ddlyle
Captain

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302 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2005 : 22:30:16

I would recommend considering which manufacturor makes it easier to rinse out the engine with fresh water.
If you keep your boat in salt water, you will want to rinse your engine (inside) with fresh water.
I have to use "earmuffs" and they're not easy to put on my Suzuki 9.9 while I'm hanging off the side of the dock.
I heard that Yamaha has a hose adapter near the tiller handle. That sure would be nice.
I fight 4 knot currents sometimes and my 9.9 does okay.

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Lowell
1st Mate

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USA
30 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2005 : 23:59:31

Summer of '03 I was in the market for a new motor. I narrowed my choices down to either a Honda or a Yamaha 8hp high thrust. The prices were nearly the same. I ended up buying the Honda because I was concerned about the length of the tiller handle on the Yamaha. It is so long that I thought there might be an interference problem with the pullpit. I was just curious if that is a problem with anybody?

Lowell Heenan
Dreamer 5655
87 WK

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Doug
Captain

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USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 02/09/2005 : 00:32:29

Tiller handle isn't an issue with my Yamaha T8. The handle has a much bigger range of motion, and rests above the transom.

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seastream
Navigator

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USA
242 Posts

Response Posted - 02/09/2005 : 21:55:40

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ddlyle
 
I heard that Yamaha has a hose adapter near the tiller handle. That sure would be nice.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Can anyone confirm/deny the above aid to flushing? Also, anyone have an approx price on the Yamaha 9.9 hi thrust? Online Outboards has the Nissan 9.8 4 stk for $1945+$135 S&H to NH. I'm told the Nissan is lighter, wonder if it's cheaper.

Bob

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Doug
Captain

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USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 02/10/2005 : 00:32:00

My yamaha T8 (8hp high thrust) has a flush hook up mounteon the outside of the housing opposite the tiller handle. I added about $3 worth of standard garden hose quick releases. Every time I come in I flip the motor up, snap on the garden hose and flush. If you look close you can see the hose in this pic:

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seastream
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USA
242 Posts

Response Posted - 02/10/2005 : 07:06:59

Cool, Doug! Regrettably, while the 8 hp has that fitting, I just found my '05 brochure and confirmed that the 9.9 DOESN'T, nor is it an option.

Yamaha, what were you thinking!

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Doug
Captain

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USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 02/10/2005 : 10:01:45

Bummer! Then again, the 8 pushes me at hull speed and has no problem hammering through the current. Don't remember why I bought the * instead of the 9.9. I think it was because the dealer said the 9.9 high thrust was a modified version of an old design, while the new T8 was a new engine. Either way, I'm thrilled with it.

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Capt. Kurt
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185 Posts

Response Posted - 02/10/2005 : 17:49:24

The Yamaha 9.9 was redesigned in 2005 (T9.9EXH2D). It does have the flush hose Doug shows for the Yamaha 8. I paid $2500 for the motor from a local boat store in Phx Az.

http://www.yamaha-motor.com/products/subcatstop.asp?lid=5&lc=otb&cid=19&scid=4&but=18&year=2005&cat=Four+Stroke+Series&scat=High+Thrust
What is wierd is if you look at the specs on Yamaha website it shows the freshwater flush option not available on the T9.9. I think this is a typo or oversight. Mine has it! I can take a picture for anyone who doesnt believe me! :)

Kurt
#818 C250WK 'Tortuga'

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seastream
Navigator

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USA
242 Posts

Response Posted - 02/10/2005 : 21:48:47

T9.9EXHD has the flush kit, eh? If I go that way, I'll be sure to specify that model, since I'll be in salt water. BTW, why do they refer to the prop as 'dual thrust'?

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lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 02/11/2005 : 10:57:52

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by seastream
 T9.9EXHD has the flush kit, eh? If I go that way, I'll be sure to specify that model, since I'll be in salt water. BTW, why do they refer to the prop as 'dual thrust'?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The Yamaha High Thrust prop has an inner and outer hub with slots cut through it, and a beveled hub "spinner" on the aft end of it; these design features channel the exhaust gas forward through the hub when the engine is in reverse gear, so that the prop blades still bite clean water with no gas bubbles in it in reverse. This gives the Yamaha much more thrust in reverse gear than most other brands of outboards that exhaust through the hub. The Honda gets around this problem of exhaust-gas induced cavitation in reverse by having a separate exhaust port higher up in the shaft housing, several inches above the prop, and also by placing a limiter on the throttle linkage that only allows about 1/4 throttle in reverse.

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seastream
Navigator

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USA
242 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2005 : 09:58:17

I'd like to hear from the Nissan camp on the prop cavitation while in reverse issue. I think a few forum members purchased the 9.8 four stroke very recently. I'd also like to know how often those of you already in salt water flush your engines. BTW, the Nissan dealer told me the flush kits (on engines equipped) only flush out the lower unit...the flush doesn't make the complete circuit around the engine water jacket. The engine would have to be running so as to operate the water pump for a complete flush to happen. Sounds logical.

Bob

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Doug
Captain

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USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2005 : 11:28:56

I flush and rinse off the outside of the motor everytime the motor is used.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/15/2005 : 22:11:06

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by seastream
 BTW, the Nissan dealer told me the flush kits (on engines equipped) only flush out the lower unit...the flush doesn't make the complete circuit around the engine water jacket. The engine would have to be running so as to operate the water pump for a complete flush to happen. Sounds logical.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Sounds like a salesman whose product comes up short. I think he's full of it. The hookup on the Honda is on the block! The Yamaha's is somewhere up there, too.

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Dave Laux
Captain

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318 Posts

Response Posted - 02/16/2005 : 06:59:17

On all outboards, unless you run the engine long enough for it to reach operating temp the fresh water flush will be inefective. This is because the thermostat is closed and the water is bypassing the block until it warms up. A brief run will only flush the pump, exhaust cover, and exhaust passage. Also since the engine is running with no load it takes a while to flush the block even after the thermostat opens because it doesn't open much. BTW this is also true for raw water cooled inboards. Dave

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