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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Rope Foot vs. Loose Foot

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Brent
1st Mate

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USA
37 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/17/2005 : 19:08:22

A couple of questions on this subject:

1. Are there any significant advantages of loose footed sails over rope footed (for lack of a better term)?

2. Is there a special piece of hardware designed to hold the clew of a loose footed sail to the boom, especially on our boats where the boom is significantly longer than the foot of the sail?

2. Is there a way to determine if a sail with a rope foot will fit in a Catalina track without actually having the sail there?

Brent

Brent
84 C25 SK/TR

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 02/17/2005 : 19:26:12

Brent,

The clew on my loose-footed North main is attached to the spar by a large slug which also has an eyelet for attaching the outhall.

The loose-footed sail allows you to make better main sail adjustments for various points of sail. Downwind for example, you can adjust a larger pocket than you can with a "shelf" sewn into the main.

The size of the loose-footed main is the same as your original sail.

Al
GALLIVANT #5801

Edited by - on

matsche
Captain

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USA
280 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2005 : 06:05:06

Ditto what Al said. I think you'll find a lot of people on this site have bought and really like the loose-footed main. I'd never go back to rope foot. IMO, sail shape is much better with the loose foot and the free boom provides a nice hand hold.

Sorry, don't know the size of the rope foot, but your sail maker should know.

Edited by - on

tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2005 : 09:59:51

Hi Brent...You can have it both ways...I've sailed Calista the past four years with an Ullman full battened main whose foot rope I merely slipped from the boom groove. The outhaul grommet on this sail is more than adequate to handle the loads it has had imposed upon it. I was going to have a foot shelf installed when the sail was new but the cost in terms of time and money was something that gave me pause. It was then that I thought to slip the foot rope for a trial. It did what I wanted the shelf to do and more. You might consider such technique with the sail that you have before committing to a more complex offering.

Val on the hard DAGNABIT

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2005 : 10:03:27

Uh oh.... Somebody just said that a shelf footed main is inferior... Milby is gonna be here in a flash to refute that!!!

Its also easier on and easier off when it comes to rigging. And what everyone else said.

To check your fit, get the diameter of the rope and compare it to the diameter of the sail you already have, or to the kerf. Most bolt ropes are a standard size... You could also check with a sailmaker via phone.

dw

Edited by - Champipple on 02/18/2005 10:05:11

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2005 : 10:39:41

I just ordered an Ullman loose footed main. Gary says that the sail comes with the proper slugs for boom, and mast. He also agrees that cleaning and prepping everything with McLube is a good idea.

I used to windsurf a lot, and all of my sails were full batten and of course loose footed. I remember adjusting outhaul tension a lot, depending on the strength of the wind.

Looking forward to loose footed. If for no other reason, it looks to be a lot of fun.

Edited by - on

Charlie Vick
Captain

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USA
423 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2005 : 00:51:39

Go loose foot!
Beside being able to shape the main easier,
you have a handhold that wasn't there before!

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2005 : 09:11:32

Brent,

Ditto everything said above. I attached a stainless steel slug (available at sailnet.com) to the clew of my old main using a double thickness of 1" nylon webbing. I will never go back to having the boltrope installed in the kerf.

Edited by - on

oldsalt
Admiral

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USA
578 Posts

Response Posted - 02/21/2005 : 11:46:19

The year before last, I ordered the Ullman loose footed main through Catalina Direct and have enjoyed it immensely. My previous main was a shelf foot design which performed well for me but the loose footed, full battened main is easier to tweak and the full battens maintain sail better for me. I was hesitant to go the with the loose foot and particularly with the full battens but I'm glad I did.

The quality of the Ullman sail is quite good.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2005 : 21:06:23

Brent, you don't say whether you are buying a new mainsail because the old one is worn out, or because you expect that a loose-footed mainsail will make your boat faster.

Don Guillette is the author of the popular "Sail Trim Chart" and the companion publication, "Sail Trim Users Guide." He has conducted numerous sail trim seminars, many under the sponsorship of Garhauer Marine. On this subject he said:

"I don't feel there is a whit's competitive difference between a bolt rope and loose footed [mainsail]."

I generally agree. Therefor, if you presently have a good rope-footed mainsail, a new loose-footed mainsail isn't, by itself, likely to make you a significantly more competitive racer. In other words, I wouldn't spend 8-9 boat units to buy a loose-footed mainsail with the expectation that it would help me win more races.

If, however, your old sail is worn out and you need to buy a new mainsail, I suggest you buy a loose-footed mainsail. I think that, in a sense, the loose-footed mainsail makes many people better sailors. Many sailors adjust the rope-footed mainsail's outhaul at the beginning of the season or at the start of a race, and never touch it again. If you have a loose-footed mainsail, you almost have to have a good outhaul adjuster that makes it easy to adjust outhaul tension. By having a good adjuster, you'll start making outhaul adjustments more often, and you'll realize how much you gain by adjusting outhaul tension more frequently - sometimes more than a half dozen times on one leg of the race course. The loose-footed design isn't significantly faster, but it encourages you to change your sail trimming habits for the better.

Edited by - on

Greg Jackson
1st Mate

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84 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2005 : 23:19:37

I've had both loose and footed main. They both work fine. The only significant difference I've seen occurs in bad weather. I've sailed a lot of long distance, 200+ miles at a crack. If you have to sail through a storm a reefed footed main becomes a bag to collect water. I've been dumped on by 3 to 5 gallons at a crack, pouring out of the reefed portion of the mainsail. Loose footed main never does that.

In fair weather sailing I've never seen any significant difference.

G. Jackson
S.V. Compass Rose

Edited by - on

Lightnup
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1016 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2005 : 23:55:13

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">...you'll realize how much you gain by adjusting outhaul tension more frequently ... <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Being a relatively new sailor and not a racer, I'm one of those who has set my outhaul tension (making the foot as taut as possible) and never re-adjusted it. I haven't gotten to the "benefits of frequent outhaul adjustments" chapter in my sailing book yet.

Steve

Edited by - on

Charlie Vick
Captain

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USA
423 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2005 : 09:42:34

What Steve Milby said.
With my rope main I never made adjustments, now I might adjust it 5 or 6 times an outing depending on the wind and its amazing the difference it can make.
It also lets me hold off reefing a little while longer because with the adjustments in the leech and the clew I seem to be able to flatten the main more.
I don't know that its a faster sail than the rope but to me the overall performance range is better.
If its easy to adjust you'll probably use it more.

Edited by - Charlie Vick on 02/23/2005 11:44:05

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2005 : 10:46:47

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I haven't gotten to the "benefits of frequent outhaul adjustments" chapter in my sailing book yet.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

When you drive a car, your motor produces a steady 150 horsepower as long as you hold your foot steady on the throttle. On a sailboat, the power that drives the boat is generated by the wind on your sails, and the amount of power increases and decreases with every wind puff and lull. If you want to take the most advantage of the puffs and lulls, you should make all the sail trim changes that are appropriate for every significant change in windspeed and direction. Racers call it "powering up" and "powering down."

A good example of the process is when you are beating to windward in a highly variable wind, alternating between puffs that overpower the boat, and lulls. You should power down in the puffs. To do that, you use the outhaul to flatten the mainsail, use the cunningham to move the pocket of the sail forward, use the backstay adjuster to flatten the mainsail and to move the pocket forward, play the traveler to leeward, and play the mainsheet to the extent necessary to keep the boat on her feet. In the lulls, you reverse that process.

You don't always make all these adjustments at the same time. Sometimes you use them progressively, doing just what's necessary to keep the sails generating their maximum power without overpowering the boat.

If you're lucky enough to have a regular racing crew, you should assign each to a certain task, so that all you have to do is tell them to "power up" or "power down," and each knows exactly what to do. When they are working together as a team, they can power up and down very efficiently, keeping the boat upright and pointing high in the puffs, when others are heeling excessively and being forced off the wind, and making the sails more powerful in the lulls.

I don't think these techniques are just for racers. I think every sailor is benefited by knowing them, even though he might not use them all the time, because they enable him to keep control of the boat in marginal conditions.

If you install a simple outhaul arrangement that enables you to adjust your outhaul tension easily, you'll start experimenting with it and it won't be long before you realize how much it can help you.

Edited by - on

ilnadi
Captain

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452 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2005 : 11:43:28

OK, here's the question from the newbie cruiser side

.
If all I want to do is:
1. Raise sail with least hassle
2. Sail with least hassle
3. Reef sail with least hassle (y'all seeing a pattern here?)
4. Lower sail with least hassle

What do the more experienced people recommend?

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2005 : 12:00:17

A good wench.

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Charlie Vick
Captain

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USA
423 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2005 : 12:05:42

Get a stinkpotter.

Just kidding, would never recomend that to anyone!
If there ain't no effort in it, it ain't no fun.

Edited by - on

ilnadi
Captain

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452 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2005 : 12:12:38

Frank, you're my hero...
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 A good wench.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Already got the best wench (see link), she prefers to do lines (including going to the mast to pull down the sticky slides) while I steer and hold on to toddler (had help in this picture).

http://mattcj.dyndns.org/~mjenkins/gallery/oriental_20040828/aal

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2005 : 13:01:24

Having had both, the single advantage I found to a footed sail is when furling it: you can make a pocket, roll the rest of the sail up in it, and put on the sail ties. With a loose foot, even when you haul the clew out as tight as possible, there's still a gap through which the sail easily slides. With my loose foot main, I'm forced to flake the sail on the boom, which is better for the sail anyhow. Go loose.

Brooke

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2005 : 17:59:19

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ilnadi
 Frank, you're my hero...
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 A good wench.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Already got the best wench (see link), she prefers to do lines (including going to the mast to pull down the sticky slides) while I steer and hold on to toddler (had help in this picture).

http://mattcj.dyndns.org/~mjenkins/gallery/oriental_20040828/aal
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I really enjoyed looking around your sailing pages, thanks for the link.

Edited by - on

Lightnup
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1016 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2005 : 19:13:56

I too enjoyed looking at the sailing pics, but I gotta ask...is that a cellphone laying next to the port cabintop winch in some of those pictures? Yikes!

Steve

Edited by - on

Lightnup
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1016 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2005 : 19:24:59

Thanks Steve Milby for your well-explained and reasoned response. I'm still trying to get hooked-up as crew at the local sailing club in order to see those dynamics in action with an experienced sailor.

"Being forced off the wind" is exactly what I'm trying to learn how to combat.

Steve

Edited by - on

ilnadi
Captain

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452 Posts

Response Posted - 02/24/2005 : 09:52:08

First, the copyright notice. Most of the pictures were taken by Matt (the guy in that picture) and he was nice enough to post them on his site for us.

Actually it's his GPS (etrex vista) with the lanyard wrapped around the (at that point) unused cleat. We now have a Garmin 60C with a proper mount.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Lightnup
 I too enjoyed looking at the sailing pics, but I gotta ask...is that a cellphone laying next to the port cabintop winch in some of those pictures? Yikes!

Steve

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

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