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Leaking Keel Hanger

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jaredeking
Deckhand

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USA
16 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/21/2005 : 11:30:12

So, where do I begin.

Around a year ago last April, I pulled my boat out of the water to do what I thought was going to be a two weekend project. My swing keel was doing the infamous "keel klunk" and I figured I had a little time off and would put an end to that.

My plan was to pull the boat out of the water, disconect the four bolts which hold the keel hangar assembly to the the hull of the boat, brace the keel in the upright position, raise the boat and set it into blocks, drill the oblong hole that the keel pin goes through and insert a piece of stainless pipe that had an outer diameter of the new hole and an inner diameter of the keel pin. I'd then lower the boat back onto the keel, reconnect everything and be back in the water in no time flat.

Well, I pulled the boat out of the water, proped the keel up on the trailer, but when I went to disconnect the four stainless steel bolts, not one, not two, not three, but all four of the bolt were so corroded that they each sheared off. I was in disbelief when they happened which is why I think I kept on going, but sure enough, each one sheared right at the base. I kept on with my plan and went to the boat yard to have the boat lifted off the trailer and the keel. I was able to do the keel hole repair as planned with little trouble, but the now sheared off bolts were a major problem.

Because I essentially had to drill upside down using a heavy duty drill, drilling out the sheared bolts lodged in the keel hangers proved to be quite difficult. I ended up using a funky contraption involving two car jacks, several boards, a couple braces, but after several hours was able to successfully drill out one of the four bolts. Using a tap set and a HeliCoil, I had one down, but three to go. I decided to ask the boat yard manager to take care of the other three. I left the yard and returned three hours later to find the worker still working on the bottom. He had broken a drill bit in one of the keel hangers and had severly botched up an other one. I told him to stop, talked to the manager who had no explaination or sympathy. I ended up successfully drilling the fourth hanger out in the same manner I had before and using an other HeliCoil, I was back in business. As for the damaged other two, I contacted Catalina who was able to offer some advice, which wasn't what I really what I wanted to hear.

Basically, they said that I needed to remove the fiberglass above the damaged keel hangers, tap the two keel hangers out from the bottom, replace them with new ones and then refiberglass them over. In order to access the area, I ended up having to remove a decent size portion of decking inside the cabin on each side of the keel hanger. It pained me to do so, but it had to be done. I removed the fiberglass and as advertised, the keel hanger popped out with little trouble. I replaced them and glassed everything back in.

After painting the hull, I had the yard folks lower the boat back onto the trailer to reconnect the keel. It took a little finessing, but everything worked out in the end. I put the boat back into the water and it works like a champ.

I no longer have the "keel klunk", but I now have a new problem. I have a leak. I'm guessing that after a good day of sailing, I take on about four to six gallons of water. If the boat sits at the pier, it really doesn't collect any water, but when I'm out sailing around, I get a little. I've been sponging it out at the end of each trip, but it's getting old quick. I've since pulled the boat out of the water and onto my trailer. Using a garden hose I filled the bilge up with water to see where it leaked out and sure enough, it's at the forward starboard side keel hanger.

Now comes the big question. Do I let things be or do I have it fixed? I'm tired of sponging out the boat each trip, but I really don't have the time to do the whole operation that I did last time and I don't feel comfortable removing and replacing exterior fiberglass below the waterline. Is 4 to 6 gallons of water a big deal, or am I freating over nothing? I am 100% confident that the keel is not going to fall off, but at the same time, a leak is a leak. To remove the keel, patch the area and put it all back together again, I'm afraid that I'm looking at the thousands and thousands of dollars for a boat that is worth less than 10K.

What do you think I should do?

I recently moved from San Francisco to south Florida. Any recommendations for boat yards in Ft Lauderdale, FL?

Anyone know of a do-it-yourself boat yard in Ft Lauderdale in the event that I decide to do nothing and just want paint the bottom?

Thanks for reading my novel of a story. -Jared

Jared on LA BELLAMER in Ft Lauderdale, FL

Edited by - on

tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 02/21/2005 : 12:15:57

Hi Jared,

Wow what a project. Sorry to hear of your trouble. I'm curious to know if you could see the water coming in when the boat was in the water. Might show a simple to fix poblem like a bolt thread not sealed and letting water past it. I hope so for your sake.

I had a really problematic swing that I had corrected by converting to a wing.. There's always that.

Best of luck with your problem.

Val on the hard DAGNABIT

Edited by - on

atgep
Master Marine Consultant

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1009 Posts

Response Posted - 02/21/2005 : 14:05:36

I am under the assumption that no leak is too small to repair. If your boat only leaks while being sailed, imagine how much more it might leak if you hit something. Perhaps someone has a trailer you can borrow to get her out and back in.

Tom.

Edited by - on

Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1768 Posts

Response Posted - 02/21/2005 : 14:32:58

Hi Jared,

Wow ... after all that work ... 'sorry you're having problems!

With any luck, either Leon Sisson or Dave Laux will see this post and give you some ideas. I know that Leon completely replaced his swing keel pivot hardware ... here's a link to Leon's description of the project: [url="http://www.catalina25-250.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8054&SearchTerms=keel"]Swing keel pivot hardware[/url]

It seems to me the good news is, you know where the leak is ... the challenge is figuring out the best way to repair it. I'm sure either Leon or Dave can give you some good ideas. In fact, Leon lives in Florida ... I don't want to put words in his mouth, but maybe you can work out a deal with Leon to help you get it fixed.

Good luck!

Edited by - on

dave holtgrave
Captain

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USA
427 Posts

Response Posted - 02/21/2005 : 20:32:19

buzz
great fix.
could you possibly put this in the technical section?
this is a great contribution and should go so noted>

thanks
dave holtgrave
5722 sk/tr
hard and dry near carlyle lake in southern illinois

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2005 : 21:18:53

Jared,

Good grief, what a mess. Your experience with the boat yard folks is a fine example of why I do all my own work on my boats, vehicles, computers, etc. (I do have a competent handyman for the house, but I still work right along side him.)
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">What do you think I should do?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">My short answer is that you need to do the repair over. That's probably not what you wanted to hear. Sorry. If you or the boat yard had followed the Catalina Yachts factory repair procedure from the git-go I can't help but believe things would have gone much smoother and been less expensive.

Although I haven't had to replace the threaded inserts in a C-25 yet, I advised and helped one of my neighbors through this on an old rat C-22. (Same design, slightly smaller parts.) On that boat someone had tried to do the entire repair from below, which was a huge screw up.

Based on the info you've provided so far, I would follow the factory procedure to replace any of the four threaded inserts that are either leaking, or had a bolt broken off in them, even if you were able to eventually extract it.

Here are a few reasons why I believe this needs to be done over right. The swing keel pivot is a critical assembly. It has a designed in safety factor, but not a huge one. As counter intuitive as this may sound, stainless steel and saltwater don't mix. I don't know what they were thinking when they chose SS for those bolts and blind inserts. If you have a leak there (at the pivot bolts and in Ft. Lauderdale), then it's a foregone conclusion that you have saltwater in contact with SS threaded fasteners. As Buzz mentioned above, although I still use the stock pivot parts in saltwater, I backed them up with a hefty amount of bronze. I replace those four SS bolts every haulout. When I install the new ones, I slather them with lots of polysulfide sealant before installing them. When I see the goo ooze out all over the place, I feel confident that there's a lot less chance of saltwater seeping past the heads of the bolts and into the threads.

When you do replace the weldments, be sure to clean and sand the holes in the fiberglass really well. Maybe put a small piece of really course sandpaper in a split dowel and spin it in the fiberglass holes with a big slow drill motor like it was a brake cylinder hone. Also sand or lightly grind the outside of the inserts to remove any contamination and improve the mechanical bond with the fiberglass. Temporarily seal the female threads of the weldments to keep epoxy from clogging the threads. Maybe use four headless bolts or pieces of all-thread with the threads dipped in hot candle wax. Be carefull not to get wax on the outside of the inserts, or if you do, clean it back off thoroughly. Use lots of epoxy, maybe with some high density filler to keep it from running through and leaving any gaps behind. Be sure to get the weldments down tight while the epoxy is still liquid. Smack 'em with a mallet, maybe even pull them into place from below with drilled scrap wood, flat washers, and nuts slid over that all-thread I mentioned. If you don't get full squeeze out of epoxy, immediately remove the insert and start over with more epoxy next time. Do a thorough job of grinding around the keel pivot lump in the bilge before glassing over the heads of the weldments. Use lots of paper towels and acetone to remove even invisible amounts of contamination before applying epoxy.

Once you've got the boat up on a trailer, the rest of this shouldn't take but a day or two to knock out. Materials and supplies might run between $50 and $100 US. A 4" right angle grinder and a shop vac would be very worth while tools to have on hand for this. An assistant might come in handy too, but might not be essential.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Any recommendations for boat yards in Ft Lauderdale, FL?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">You gotta be kidding. That's one of the most expensive ports in the world in which to hire out boat work!

And being over charged does not in any way guarantee proportionately higher (or even acceptable) quality work. More likely, they'll stick you and your puny little trailer sailor with their least competent help, while the guys who might know what they're doing are busy over charging even worse on the mega yachts lined up begging for repairs. I'd say do it yourself and save a lot of both money and grief.

Aren't I just a fountain of cheerful optimism?

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

jaredeking
Deckhand

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USA
16 Posts

Response Posted - 02/24/2005 : 00:30:59

Leon, were were you when I did the original repair a year ago?

What you described is exactly what I ended up doing on the two that were completely botched up by the boat yard. Based on what you are saying, I'm now thinking that maybe I should do the same on at least the other two keel hangers, if not all four.

A couple of questions for you:

1) You mentioned that I should do this myself on the trailer. Well, I currently have the boat on the trailer now, but if I were to remove the four bolts, then my two keel pin plates would still be in the way (not to mention the keel itself) preventing me from effectively doing the work? Are you suggesting that I remove the bolts then have the boat lifted on to blocks like I did last time? Right now the aft end of the keel is actually resting on the trailer (no tension on the keel cable), but the front end is about 3-4 inches above the trailer's board. Even if I removed the bolts and lowered the forward end down, I don't think I'd be able to remove the keel pin plates and the associated pin from the keel. Does any of this make sense?

2) Where can you purchase new keel hangers? I had to take my damaged ones to a metal shop who essentially manufactured new ones for me. Is there a source for prefabricated ones? If I recall correctly, I don't think Catalina sells them, nor does Catalina Direct.

3) What is the probability of it not even being the actual keel hangers that are the problem? Do you think it would be prudent to grind down slightly and reglass the whole underside in the vicinity of the keel mount (a couple feet in each direction)?

Thanks for the previous advice. It helps.

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 02/24/2005 : 19:27:45

Jared,
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">1.) Even if I removed the bolts and lowered the forward end down, I don't think I'd be able to remove the keel pin plates and the associated pin from the keel.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">If you remove the four bolts and lower the keel at least 2" (using the all-thread method and/or a jack), there should then be room to slide the keel pivot hanger bearings or pillow blocks off the ends of the pivot pin. Then the pin should slide out of the keel. None of this dissassembly should require any significant force, (Except of course the part about lowering the 1,500 lb. keel!) Once the pivot hardware is out of the way, there should be plenty of room under the boat to replace the weldments, or female threaded inserts, since most of the work is done from inside the cabin.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">2.) Where can you purchase new keel hangers?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">It's my understanding that Catalina Yachts stocks, or can get, these parts. As I recall, they come in a kit with instructions at a very reasonable price. If the first parts person you talk to seems vague on what you're asking for, try a different parts picker, or speak to a more technically savy customer service person.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">3.) What is the probability of it not even being the actual keel hangers that are the problem? Do you think it would be prudent to grind down slightly and reglass the whole underside in the vicinity of the keel mount (a couple feet in each direction)?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Once you have the pivot hardware out of the way, try the water-in-the-bilge test again. Watch very carefully to see where the water first comes through. Wipe it away with a towel and watch again several times. Mark with chalk, or photograph, or make detailed sketches and take good notes so you aren't in doubt later as to what you are trying to fix. Recording the details can also help us help you long distance. If the leak is right at one of the threaded inserts, then replace that insert. If the leak isn't at an insert, let us know exactly what you found, and we will advise further.

Oh yeah, a possibly helpful hint on getting a threaded insert to break free and start sliding up after you've ground away the fiberglass on top of it. Screw a bolt into it if that's possible, and then heat the bolt with a propane torch. Don't get too wild with the heat, you're not trying to melt metal, just slightly soften the resin immediately in contact with the insert. Add a little heat, whack bolthead up with a hammer, repeat.

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

Ben - FL
Admiral

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880 Posts

Response Posted - 02/24/2005 : 20:11:42

Jared,

I had the same thing happen on my old boat Desi, a Catalina 22 swinger. There was always water in the bilge no matter how often I sponged it out. And when I went to drop the 500 lb center board to fix the KLUNK one of the hanger bolts sheared off. Fortunatlely I was able to work it out my turning it with a chisel and hammer. This is exactly why I went looking for a 250 wing keel. I have sworn off swingers. Good luck with your project. I believe anything can be fixed. It's just a matter of perseverance.

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 02/25/2005 : 20:07:00

You've checked to see that the keel cable pipe and hose didn't get messed up while working on the keel?

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