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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Outhaul: 4:1, or 6:1, or 8:1 needed?

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Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/14/2005 : 17:09:46

Hi there,
Well I bagged the idea of installing the Catalina direct internal outhaul kit, which has an 8:1 purchase. The screws going into the cast aluminum end caps will not come out. I tried every trick I know, and I just don't want to drill out, tap, and go through all that. So I guesse I'll go with an external outhaul for my incoming full batten, loose foot Ullman main. The catalina direct book shows a kit with a 4:1 purchase. I think I have enough spare parts laying around to do that, but If I substitute a 3 part block I could get a 6 : 1 purchase.
So, you folks who have this sail, or one like it, what should I go with? Do I really need a 6:1? or will 4:1 do?
Thanks

Frank Gloss
Formerly 89WK/TR
85 Ericson 32-3 shoal draft "Molto Bene"

Edited by - on

PZell
Admiral

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USA
548 Posts

Response Posted - 03/14/2005 : 17:38:17

This is how you get the end cap off.
1. There is no way you are going to back out the screws if they are corroded in. So, we have found that the best way is to twist off the screw head or saw it off.
2. Take a nail punch and tap the screw inside the cap/boom.
3. Tap off the end cap with a rubber mallet.
4. Put on new end cap and drill holes for slightly larger screws.
IT'S THE WAY!!
So, you might not have to abandon your original intentions.

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 03/14/2005 : 17:54:52

You know Paul, I wouldn't be surprised if they are sheet metal screws instead of machine screws. I could drill and tap for 1/4-20 screws. I just don't want to screw up the boom when grinding off the screw heads. The external outhaul is looking simpler and simpler.

Edited by - on

eric.werkowitz
Captain

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USA
283 Posts

Response Posted - 03/14/2005 : 18:02:24

Frank,

I'm using a 5:1 (two double blocks, one with a bale). It seems to work well for my older sail.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 03/14/2005 : 18:50:32

Frank - I have the same set-up as Eric: 2 double blocks and 3/16" line to a small V-jam cleat on the side of the boom.
Derek

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 03/14/2005 : 21:00:46

3:1 here; block and bale on clew, block on boom end, turning block on boom side.

double purchase here=6:1

Edited by - on

Charlie Vick
Captain

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USA
423 Posts

Response Posted - 03/14/2005 : 22:19:03

Frank I didn't realize you were a hanker, unless thats not a picture of your headsail.
What are the straps hanging from your boom?
They don't look long enough to strap the main down.

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 03/15/2005 : 07:23:48

I cannot afford a Harken and would not buy less, I use a deck bag. I flake it on the forestay fold it and put the deck bag around it. The straps are on a double length of bungie from layline. They pull up and around the main very nicely.

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Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 03/15/2005 : 08:19:36

So Frank,
The way I see your rig is that you have the outhaul line led to your cockpit.
Am I right?

Edited by - on

tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 03/15/2005 : 08:39:26

Frank, I have the sail that you are awaiting and since flying it loose footed have no need for power outhauling. I just pull and set. And that's from a fellow who needs help getting the cap off his aspirin bottle.

Val on the hard DAGNABIT

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/15/2005 : 09:54:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by eric.werkowitz
 ...I'm using a 5:1 (two double blocks, one with a bale). It seems to work well for my older sail.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Two doubles, one with a becket, would result in a 4:1 purchase.

I also use a 4:1 setup that uses two double blocks. It is layed out like that shown in the CD Handbook and is led aft to the cockpit. From what I've read, 4:1 on the outhaul is plenty for our small boats.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 03/15/2005 : 13:11:15

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Gloss
 So Frank,
The way I see your rig is that you have the outhaul line led to your cockpit.
Am I right?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Yes. I have not changed the purchase that was on my boat. I only added a longer line so I could run it to the cabin top. It is a lot of purchase. 3 or 4:1 would be fine.

Edited by - on

MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 03/15/2005 : 14:37:12

Frank,
Something looks a little odd to me. It looks like your out haul is tied at the end of the boom, then goes up to a block on the (brain fade on what it is called, line that goes from top of mast to end of boom? I'm tired and cant think) topping lift (just saw it somewhere else)? then down to a block on the boom and to the sail and back to the boom block and forward I imagin to a block leading to the cockpit. Seems to me that this would pull the boom up if tightned and really affect the shape of the sail.

Edited by - MattL on 03/15/2005 14:43:42

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 03/15/2005 : 15:07:23

There are two seperate blocks at the end of my boom, one for the topping lift and one for the outhaul.The lines are hard to discern. The topping lift is made off to the boom cap. The outhaul is made off to the bale on the clew block.

Edited by - Frank Hopper on 03/15/2005 20:35:07

eric.werkowitz
Captain

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USA
283 Posts

Response Posted - 03/15/2005 : 18:29:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 [quote]Originally posted by eric.werkowitz
 ...I'm using a 5:1 (two double blocks, one with a bale). It seems to work well for my older sail.

Two doubles, one with a becket, would result in a 4:1 purchase.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Not so Don. There are four lines between the blocks and the fifth line goes aft to the cleat at the end of the boom. By my count that is 5:1.

(I may not know a becket from a bail, but I can count to five!)

Edited by - on

ronrryan
Admiral

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USA
561 Posts

Response Posted - 03/15/2005 : 21:23:36

It kind of depends how sophisticatewd your sail control tends to be. Mine is primordial. Block with becket on clew, sometimes just a block. When with becket, a double block on boom end ( maybe on topping lift fitting, or whatever.) The line leads from becket to doubleblock, back to sheave, back to double, forward to belay.If just a block on clew, then from boom end to block, back to turing block at boom end, forward to cleat or clamcleat. Thus two or three to one. All this other stuff is for racing adjustments under sail where there is heavy pressure on the out haul; if you are a cruiser, get a grip. You may CHOOSE to put an 8:1 outhaul inside your boom, but you surely dont NEED one, IMHO. Fair winds (from one who like many on this site started with laced on gaff mains and was pretty happy using them,) God Bless, ron srsk Orion SW FL

Edited by - on

tmhansen
Captain

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USA
397 Posts

Response Posted - 03/16/2005 : 01:21:50

Frank another question about your topping lift. Why does it run down the boom to the deck? Right now I use a spare halyard freed up by the CDI furler but I am interested in your set up since I now want the halyard to fly a spinaker. Why the wire topping lift vs line?

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matsche
Captain

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USA
280 Posts

Response Posted - 03/16/2005 : 08:25:36

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by eric.werkowitz
 Not so Don. There are four lines between the blocks and the fifth line goes aft to the cleat at the end of the boom. By my count that is 5:1.

(I may not know a becket from a bail, but I can count to five!)
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I believe Don's right. You only count the lines between the blocks. Harken has a good article about it here -> http://www.harken.com/blocks/taclpwr.php

Edited by - on

MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 03/16/2005 : 09:33:16

two double pullies one with a becket.

I count to 4

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 03/16/2005 : 16:18:36

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by MattL
 two double pullies one with a becket.

I count to 4
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
4
You count the lines to the movable pulley. If you grabbed that bundle in your hand and counted the lines supporting the movable pulley you get four just like Matt said. The "fifth" line is simply changing direction of the force because it comes off a fixed block.

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 03/16/2005 : 18:32:00

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by tmhansen
 Frank another question about your topping lift. Why does it run down the boom to the deck? Right now I use a spare halyard freed up by the CDI furler but I am interested in your set up since I now want the halyard to fly a spinaker. Why the wire topping lift vs line?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Weight and windage. If you run the topping lift like a halyard you need a sheave or two, your line runs from the boom end to the masthead and then all the way back down. That puts two lengths of the line in the air. Not a big deal but less weight aloft is a cardinal rule. Running it along the boom allows me to lead it back with the other lines. I like it a lot. I could stop it at the mast end of the boom if I was not rigged to lead things back and still be able to get to it on any point of sail. The wire is what is left from my old POS wire to rope halyards. It has such a narrow cross section that is creates less windage, and is very strong. It would be ok to use 3/16 line without a purchase.

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eric.werkowitz
Captain

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USA
283 Posts

Response Posted - 03/16/2005 : 18:44:29

Your drawing does not represent my rig accurately. On my rig, the "redirected line" runs toward the other block to a cleat. I'm just a poor stupid engineer, but if the redirected line runs toward the other block, it is under the same tension as the other four lines. It is pulling the right hand block toward the left hand block. Therefore, it is a 5:1 advantage. In the Harken examples, as in the drawing above, the redirected line's force vector is neutral (orthogonal) relative to the the rest of the lines, therefore it does not contribute to the total forces seeking to pull the blocks together. It is a 4:1 advantage.

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eric.werkowitz
Captain

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USA
283 Posts

Response Posted - 03/16/2005 : 18:51:08

Edited by - eric.werkowitz on 03/16/2005 19:09:24

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 03/16/2005 : 19:37:38

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by eric.werkowitz
 Your drawing does not represent my rig accurately. On my rig, the "redirected line" runs toward the other block to a cleat. I'm just a poor stupid engineer, but if the redirected line runs toward the other block, it is under the same tension as the other four lines.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Tension isn't the issue. You can test the purchase with a ruler if you like. Measure the distance the block moves against the length of the tail. 4:1 is 4:1 in applied force (effort) required and length.
Picture a block on a yardarm sticking out of a hay loft. The purpose is to redirect the force so the worker can pull down rather than try to pull up from the loft. There is no mechanical advantage. 1 line going to the load = 1:1 Note the fifth line in this pict is coming from the suspended load. (the clew)

Since you are an engineer you learned this once, it is just one of those things that doesn't stick very well. My list of things like that is quite long. I have been teaching physical science for many years and it always amazes me how many things I have to look up every year.

Edited by - Frank Hopper on 03/16/2005 19:45:37

eric.werkowitz
Captain

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USA
283 Posts

Response Posted - 03/16/2005 : 23:26:30

As I said before, the clew is the weight. It is the point that is moving. The upper block is fixed (to the end of the mast). Since the tail is pulling in the direction of the movement of the weight (clew), it must be counted in determining the advantage. That's why the equation says P=1/5W and not P=1/4W.

You're right, I learned it once.

Edited by - on

tmhansen
Captain

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USA
397 Posts

Response Posted - 03/17/2005 : 00:52:34

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Weight and windage. If you run the topping lift like a halyard you need a sheave or two, your line runs from the boom end to the masthead and then all the way back down. That puts two lengths of the line in the air. Not a big deal but less weight aloft is a cardinal rule. Running it along the boom allows me to lead it back with the other lines. I like it a lot. I could stop it at the mast end of the boom if I was not rigged to lead things back and still be able to get to it on any point of sail. The wire is what is left from my old POS wire to rope halyards. It has such a narrow cross section that is creates less windage, and is very strong. It would be ok to use 3/16 line without a purchase.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thanks Frank. I guessed that was the reason. I like the idea. Our topping lift has two settings, sailing, and not sailing. That is when not sailing I like to crank the boom up over the top of my head and then pull down on the main sheet to keep it from swinging around. This would be pretty easy to set up. I have some old Hobie cable around, if they are too short a small diameter line would be less weight. Downside is one more line to deal with when trailering but not a big deal. Thanks again for sharing the photo and the idea.

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