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Shroud tension?

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Headhunter
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Initially Posted - 04/03/2002 : 09:18:11

I'm going to be able to borrow a loos(?) guage from a local rigger this weekend. Anyone have the particulars on desireable tensions for the various shrouds for a tall rig (1986 / fixed keel)? I'd like to pre-bend the mast just a bit.

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Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 04/03/2002 : 11:11:32

Doug - it depends on 1. whether you are a racer or a cruiser
2. do you have a split backstay with adjuster?
3. do you have roller furling?
4. in what sort of conditions do you sail, and where - inland lake or coast?
When we know all these then I'm sure we can help <img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>

Derek on "This Side Up" (also a TRFK)

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Headhunter
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Response Posted - 04/03/2002 : 12:47:12

1. racer
2. split backstay w/ adjuster
3. no roller furling
4. Inland lake - Lake Norman NC...anywhere from 3-4 mph to 15-20 mph winds

Thanks Derek

Doug Riley
"Life o' Riley"

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Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 04/03/2002 : 13:50:58

Doug - you will probably get conflicting opinions on this, but I carry my rig tension much, much looser than anyone else I know.
The uppers are at 30 on the front of the Loos Guage (I don't bother converting because I think it's immaterial in my case).
The forward lowers are just snugged up, to 25 on the front of the guage. The aft lowers can barely be registered on the guage - they literally wave in the breeze!
I carry 8" - 10" of headstay sag (measured with the backstay adjuster OFF), and the backstay is also loose - I can move it back & forth about 2" - 3" at its junction.
The other important things are to have the mast in column (straight up & down both fore and aft and athwartship). I measure mine using the main halyard to a point on each toerail midships, and make sure that each side is identical. Next, sight up the mast-track and make sure the mast tip is not hooked to one side or the other. If it is, you will be very slow on one tack! Correct it by adjusting the uppers as necessary. I do not have any pre-bend in the mast.
I find that this combination makes the boat very fast - especially off the wind. (I got the specs from Fleet #2 in Calif - but lost them when my hard drive crashed).
I also race on an inland lake - and our winds go from zero to 35 (often on the same day!) The last time I raced it was 16 - 25k and I did not make any adjustments to the rig tension.
If you try this, please let me know what you think.
Derek

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dlucier
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Response Posted - 04/03/2002 : 16:56:48

Derek,

First let me say that I'm no expert when it comes to mast tuning and since I'm hoping to raise my mast in a week or two, I've been gathering information concerning this.

You mention that your aft lowers, "...literally wave in the breeze!", but from information I've gathered this might not be good. The following is an excerpt from an article on tuning a Capri 25:

". If you were to tighten the backstay without any tension on the aft lower shrouds, the first part of the tension would be transmitted to the forestay and straighten it. But at a point, the tension no longer goes into keeping the forestay tight; instead, it starts to press the masthead down towards the deck. This is "compression loading," which happens to all rigs to some extent. Because the mast section is "bendy", it will bow forward in the middle, as much as 8" – 10". This is fine if you have a really full sail and need to flatten it, but I like a medium-full sail with lots of power to get the boat moving and pointing. Therefore, I tighten my aft lower shrouds as tight as I can, and then put just enough tension on the forward lowers to keep them snug so the mast doesn’t "pump" in a seaway. The tension on the aft lowers keeps the middle of the mast from bending too far. Three to five inches of bend when the backstay is applied is good. Also, by preventing the mast from bending too much in the middle, the rig tension is transferred back into the forestay, where the tighter it is, the better pointing you will obtain."

Additionally, from the Loos website concerning rig tensions, they state:

"The rigging tension has an important influence on both the durability and performance of the system. Contrary to popular thought a slack rig is more punishing to the cables, fittings, and hull than a properly adjusted tight rig, since it can subject the entire system to excessive movement and can cause misalignment, wear, shock loading, and fatigue. Similarly, the sailing performance is affected since the rigging tension determines the shape and deflection of the mast and the sag of the forestay. The expert skipper will benefit by maintaining consistent rigging tension while developing the optimum sail shape and sailing tactics."

So should any part of the rig wave in the breeze?

Don Lucier, Northstar
C25 SR/FK

Edited by - on

Rick Heaverly 86 C25 5382
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Belize
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Response Posted - 04/03/2002 : 17:46:43

Don't the condition of the sails have something to do with it. Old sails that are stretched out vs new sails?

Rick Heaverly

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Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 04/03/2002 : 18:06:55

Don - thanks for the comments and the quotes. Not only do my aft lowers "wave in the breeze" but when going to weather the leeward shrouds also "wave"...! So far (and I have 3 years of racing experience with this set-up - virtually every other weekend) I have had none of the problems described and the rig is inspected carefully before we go out. When I bought new sails, my sailmaker asked how I "carried" my rig and I told him. He cut the sails to accomodate my rig tension (or lack of it).
I have no experience with a Capri but I do know that since I changed to this set-up the boat has got much faster (under all conditions). Last week I raced against a C250, a C25, a Yngling and a Beneateau 331 over a 10 mile course (basically windward/leeward)in 16 - 25 knots wind. I beat them all by at least 30 minutes...admittedly, they are not hard-core racers, but...<img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle>
With loose aft lowers, when you run off the wind, they allow the mast to "move" forward - it makes the genoa much fuller and more powerful. Tightening the forestay as you describe does help pointing - but you have a very narrow groove and in the shifty wind conditions on our lake that makes steering a bear! And, quite frankly, I can't remember the last time I put more than minimal tension on the backstay.
I'd like to know what the other hotshot racers think - Steve Milby, how do you rig yours?
Derek

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Phredde
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Response Posted - 04/03/2002 : 19:20:47

I'm no expert, and still a newbie on this site, but here is what happened to me once. Late afternoon, after many hours of hard but fun sailing in the SF bay, we tacked just inside the Golden Gate bridge. Unbeknownst to me, my (formerly) leeward (now windward) shroud had come off of the spar. So after coming about I looked up and saw my mast in a shape resembling a candy cane. That was the quickest main dousing drill I've ever done. So I now keep my shrouds fairly tight. That's what works for me...

Phredde
Catalina 25
San Francisco

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 04/03/2002 : 20:13:25

Phredde,

That scares me just reading about your mishap.<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>

Don Lucier, Northstar
C25 SR/FK

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Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 04/03/2002 : 21:21:25

That's why I have lock nuts on the turnbuckles and do an inspection each time before leaving the dock...
Derek
P.S. I think that experience would leave you with brown stains on your pants...

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Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 04/03/2002 : 21:23:20

Now guys - no rude comments, I just got promoted to Admiral...<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Derek

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Headhunter
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 04/03/2002 : 22:45:49

I called Catalina earlier today and they said that they recommend that the shrouds are tightened to the point where 1). the mast is in column and 2). where the leeward shrouds are loose enough to rattle in 15-20 mph breezes.

Looks like I need to loosen mine up a bit!

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Gary B.
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Response Posted - 04/03/2002 : 23:35:36

There just HAS to be another opinion, huh? Ok, so, while I'm not a hard core racer, I did race more last summer than any other. Finished 2nd in class in a 6 leg regatta down and back on the Columbia River in all conditions from zepher to 20+ knots. Just before these races, I tightened my rig tighter than it's ever been, including the aft lowers, but I do think I'll ease them and see. No Loos gauge, but my rig is STIFF, and pretty darn fast, especially to weather. BTW, my sails are nowhere near new; just had main recut this winter to get another season or two?? I intend to keep experimenting, but one C-25 that we beat last season had a very loose rig; but then, there are SO many variables that can explain one boat being faster than another.....

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Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 04/04/2002 : 13:33:22

Derek,

Until recently, I haven't paid as much attention to mast tuning as I should have. I always just set up my rig straight and adjusted all the stays snugly, to keep the mast in column, and to prevent the rig from moving around excessively. I left the headstay a little looser, but overall it was still rather snug. In a rising wind, during the first two races of last year's C-25/250 National Regatta, we were all overpowered, carrying our 155% genoas after we should have changed down to smaller sails. Nevertheless, even though they were overpowered, other boats were still able to coax their boats to windward, but my boat was heeling excessively, with excess tiller pressure, and we were dying. I tried everything I could think of to get her going, but ultimately, the only thing that helped was when we swapped the 155 for the 110% jib at the start of the third race. ( Going to the smaller jib was the right thing to do, but the fact remains that, when we were all carrying the same sails, theirs were working better than mine, and there had to be a reason.) Since then, I have been thinking about why others could keep their boats going in those conditions and I couldn't. I suspect that rig tuning might be one culprit. The way that I had my rig set up, with all the lowers adjusted equally snugly, prevented the backstay adjuster from working as well as it is supposed to. My setup worked fine until I needed to bend the mast and get a little extra windward ability, but my excessively snug aft lowers wouldn't allow the lower part of the mast to move.

I have copied your recommendations to a file on my hard drive, and this year will set up my rig as you suggest. I can hardly wait to get out in a breeze and try it out.

Regarding the article on tuning a Capri 25, it doesn't stand up to the test of logic. Let's compare my method, the Capri method and your method. Keep in mind that, after they are initially broken in, stainless steel stays stretch a little when put under a load, but not much.

My method called for snugging up all the lower stays. When you put tension on the backstay adjuster, the equally tensioned lower stays held the mast in column from every direction, and prevented the lower part of the mast from bending or moving very much in any direction. The only part of the mast that could bend was the part above the lower stays. Putting tension on the backstay adjuster bent the upper part of the mast, but not enough.

In the Capri 25 article, the author tunes his mast similarly to my method, but he "tighten[s] [his] aft lower shrouds as tight as [he] can, and then put[s] just enough tension on the forward lowers to keep them snug so the mast doesn’t 'pump' in a seaway." In short, his forward lowers are looser than his aft lowers. When pressure is applied to the backstay adjuster, the top part of the mast will bend aft, but the only place where there is room for movement in the lower part of the mast is in the forward lowers. That means the lower part of the mast can only bend aft. As a result, if the backstay adjuster is applied really hard, the mast could have an "S" shape, from top to bottom. Also, when the forward lowers are looser than the aft lowers, the backstay adjuster will pull the whole rig aft slightly, which moves the center of effort of the sail plan slightly aft. That is exactly what you don’t want to do when you are fighting excessive heel and excessive tiller pressure.

Your method makes sense, and is consistent with most of what I have read on the subject. Your forward lowers are snug, and prevent the lower part of the mast from moving aft when tension is applied to the backstay adjuster. Your aft lowers are loose, so that the lower part of the mast can bend forward when tension is applied to the backstay adjuster. The bent mast takes a "C" shape, rather than an "S" shape. My approach bends the upper part of the mast, but yours allows the mast to bend more, along its entire length. At first, I don't think I will keep my aft lowers loose enough to "wave in the breeze," but, after I try it and see how it works, I have a feeling that I will eventually loosen them that much. We'll see.

Some people are tempted to tighten their stays until the shrouds are "bar-tight." At one national regatta, the locals said one such boat was dismasted by a power boat wake, while on its mooring. Something snapped while the mast was whipping, and the mast buckled when it was whipped out of column. However you tune your rig, I don't think there is ever a reason to tighten a stay as tight as you can.

In really strong winds, my leeward upper stay slackens when going to windward. That doesn't bother me as long as it isn't too much, and as long as the mast remains in column (except for the fore-aft mast bend that is intentionally induced by the backstay adjuster). When you are beating to windward, the mast is supported and held in column by the windward stays, if they are adjusted properly. The leeward stays are slightly relaxed, waiting until it's their turn to do the hard work. On my boat, the lowers have always remained snug, because that's how I had them adjusted. I don't use a Loos gauge, but I put a tiny bit more tension on the uppers than on the lowers, to compensate for the fact that the uppers are longer than the lowers. I don't want the top of the mast to sag off to leeward in a strong wind. When I start using Derek's approach, I expect the aft lowers will be a little loose, except when the backstay adjuster is tensioned.

I don't interpret the quote from the Loos website to mean that the rig should have no movement in it. Unless you adjust everything bar-tight, there is bound to be some movement in the rig. The article says that the rig should not have excessive movement (I would emphasize the word "excessive."). It says you should have a properly adjusted tight rig (I would emphasize the words "properly adjusted."). There is a range between "loose" and "bar-tight." To me, "snug" best describes the proper amount of tension that you should generally use in tuning the rig. Not loose, or tight, but snug.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

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dlucier
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Response Posted - 04/04/2002 : 14:33:37

I didn't interpret the quote from the Loos website to mean that the rig should have no movement in it either and yes, I agree that a rig should remain somewhat flexible, but the lower shrouds also prevent/control the middle of the mast from bowing to either port or starboard. The initial mast bend that is put in at the docks is to compensate for old/new and full/less full sails. After this initial setup, tweaking is done out on the water for maximum performance. The key word here is "tweaking" not re-adjusting the rig setup. Now, I've heard that you should go to a sailmaker for rig tuning advice and according to the rig tuning guide for the Catalina 22 from the North Sails website,

"Tighten or loosen lower shrouds until mast is straight side-to-side. Your mast is now tuned for moderate winds. The reason for checking the mast while sailing is that the shrouds will stretch slightly under load. We want to make sure the mast is straight, especially side-to-side, under sail."

It seems to me if your shrouds waving in the breeze, the mast is not straight "side-to-side". Here is the tuning guide for the Catalina 22 from the NorthSails website

Mast Tuning (Before Sailing)

First loosen shrouds until they are somewhat loose.

Mast Rake: The mast rake is probably the single most important element of tuning your boat. Note the mast rake should vary from fixed to swing keels with swing keels having slightly less rake.

Start with boat sitting on its lines in the water. Hang a weight from the end of the main halyard and cleat off halyard with weight and shackle 12" below the boom. Measure distance from the aft face of the mast to where the halyard crosses the boom. This measurement should be 8" for fixed keels, 6-7" for swing keels. Adjust the headstay turnbuckle to achieve desired measurement.

Tighten backstay until snug, no slack. Remove weight from halyard, attach a tape measure to halyard and haul to top of mast. Measure from side to side tightening or loosening upper shrouds until mast is centered.

Now start tightening upper shrouds until they have show 28 on the gauge. Tighten forward lowers until they show 24 on the gauge. Tighten aft lowers until they are 24 on the gauge too. To measure shroud tension use a Loos Model A Tension Gauge. The end result here is to have the mast straight fore and aft with a small amount of rake to give the boat some "bite" upwind.

Now you're ready to go sailing!

Mast Tuning (on the water)

Sailing upwind with moderate backstay on, sight up the backside of the mast checking that it is straight. Tighten or loosen lower shrouds until mast is straight side-to-side. Your mast is now tuned for moderate winds. The reason for checking the mast while sailing is that the shrouds will stretch slightly under load. We want to make sure the mast is straight, especially side-to-side, under sail.

Don Lucier, Northstar
C25 SR/FK

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OJ
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Response Posted - 04/04/2002 : 14:46:12

Zowy! The verbiage on this thread is pretty voluminous!
I've only skimmed the above - but I didn't see anything about the fact that there are two different styles of Loos gauges - which have different numbers/readings for the same tension.

Steve Madsen
#2428
OJ (Ode to Joy)

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Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 04/04/2002 : 16:44:48

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but, as I recall, the C-22 only has one set of lowers, whereas the C-25 has two sets - the forward lowers and aft lowers. You can't compare the two when it comes to tuning the rig.

On the C-22, because you only have one set of lowers, they have to be drawn snug in order to hold the mast in column.

When you are sailing a C-25 off the wind, and the backstay adjuster is not tensioned, and all the other sail tensioning devices are eased, the stresses on the rig are not nearly as great as when you are hard on the wind. The mast has a certain amount of inherent rigidity, and it doesn't require as much support from the stays to hold it in column. The uppers and the forward lowers are ordinarily sufficient, under the reduced amount of stress, to provide lateral support, and hold the mast in column. If an extraordinary blast of wind should come along and exert unusual stress on the rig, the aft lowers should be so adjusted that they will draw tight before the mast bows far enough out of column to endanger it. I'm sure some gung ho racers will leave their lowers much too loose, but I'm not advocating that, and I don't think Derek is either.

If you have a backstay adjuster, you will apply tension to it whenever you are beating to windward. Think about how each stay functions. If your rig is properly tuned, the tightened backstay will pull the top of the mast aft. The headstay will limit the distance that the top of the mast can bend aft. The forward lowers will resist the pull of the backstay and prevent the lower part of the mast from moving aft. At the same time, the forward lowers will provide lateral support to the lower portion of the mast, to keep the lower part of the mast from sagging to leeward. The uppers will provide lateral support to the top of the mast, to keep it from sagging off to leeward. As the tension on the backstay adjuster increases, it will exert a downward force on the mast. The mast step and keel will resist the downward force on the mast. Since the mast can't move downward, to release the pressure, the mast will bow in the middle. Because the forward lower is adjusted snugly, and the aft lower is adjusted loosely, the lower part of the mast can only bend one way, i.e. foreward. As the lower part of the mast bows forward, the aft lowers will become taut, and prevent the mast from bending so far out of column as to damage the mast.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

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Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 04/04/2002 : 23:24:13

Don - with regard to the C22, I used to race one with the rig very tight. After noticing that all the other C22's had finished 4 beers in the Clubhouse before I had even finished the race, I started looking for a reason why they were so much faster - they all had rigs that were super loosey goosey. We have a previous C22 Natl Champion racing on the lake - his rig is also very loose. So there must be something to it...
Derek

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dlucier
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Response Posted - 04/04/2002 : 23:53:59

Derek,

I don't doubt that there can be advantages to having a loose rig, it's just that I've been to a gazillion web sites on sail tuning for every kind of boat imaginable and not one advocates having shrouds that sway in the breeze. I’m sure we can all agree that in light air, a looser rig is preferable and in heavy air the rig should be tighter.
I think the bottom line is to just use good judgment and know how an adjustment, to either standing or running rigging, affects the overall performance of your boat and keep a watchful eye on things.

Don Lucier, Northstar
C25 SR/FK

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Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 04/05/2002 : 00:21:31

"I think the bottom line is to just use good judgment and know how an adjustment, to either standing or running rigging, affects the overall performance of your boat and keep a watchful eye on things."

Don - that's my basic philosophy! Thank you for a good discussion.
Derek

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n/a
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Response Posted - 04/05/2002 : 08:37:47

The C25, with its masthead rig and straight, rigid spar is not really open to the mast bending possibilites of other boats with tapered, twisty spars and fractional rigs. But that does make the tuning exercise pretty simple: Apply the least tension that keeps the mast straight in normal conditions. So, as an example, start with the lowers "without slack or tension" (as Catalina says) and adjust from there. I think you're better off leaving the guages at home and using common sense instead.

Andy P.
#5708

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Bristle
Admiral

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Response Posted - 04/05/2002 : 10:14:22

My tools are the main halyard (to check for verticality), and a crescent wrench (tied to the main halyard, and later used to tap the shrouds and stays, listening for matching low pitches on both sides). My aft leeward lower waves a little in a breeze above 12K--when it hits 20, for some reason I've never noticed what the shrouds are doing...

BTW, what is the point of raking the mast aft on our boats other than to increase weather helm, which it will do?

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 SR-FK #5032 "Passage" in CT

Edited by - bristle on 04/05/2002 10:15:54

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Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 04/05/2002 : 15:20:03

Dave,

You really aren't raking the mast aft when you apply tension with a backstay adjuster. The upper part of the mast bends back somewhat, but the middle part of the mast bows forward, which approximately equalizes the effect. More importantly, when the mast bends, with the mainsail attached to it, it pulls the pocket of the mainsail forward, which flattens the mainsail. The flatter mainsail helps you point to windward and keep the boat on her feet in strong winds. Also, pulling on the backstay tightens the headstay, which helps flatten the jib.

But, the adjustable backstay also helps you sail off the wind. When the tension on the backstay adjuster is released, the headstay becomes slack, which allows the jib to become more full. Likewise, easing the backstay adjuster releases the bend in the mast and allows the mainsail to become more full, for downwind sailing.

In a sense, the real value of the backstay adjuster is that it enables you to instantaneously make a big change in the adjustment of your rig, while you are underway, so that when you apply tension it helps you go to windward by taking slack out of the headstay and by flattening the mainsail. When you release the tension, it helps you sail off the wind by putting slack into the headstay and by making both the mainsail and jib more full. If you don't have a backstay adjuster, you can't, as a practical matter, loosen the turnbuckles on your headstay while underway, to put more slack in it when you want to sail off the wind, and, without a backstay adjuster, you can't adjust the turnbuckles of your headstay more tightly, when you want to sail to windward.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

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dlucier
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Response Posted - 04/05/2002 : 15:49:34

Dave,

To answer your question, "...what is the point of raking the mast aft...?", mast rake is generally set according to the prevailing conditions in your sailing area. Sailors in light air areas will have a different rake than those in windier areas, but in a nutshell the "rake" of the mast controls the amount of weatherhelm a boat experiences. In general terms, a mast should have some rake and then adjusted to fit average conditions(heavy air/less rake and light air/more rake).

Don Lucier, Northstar
C25 SR/FK

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Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 04/05/2002 : 18:23:45

Steve - I think that you should write a book on sail trim and rig tuning! Your explanations are so good that even I can understand them...<img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle>
Derek

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Bristle
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Response Posted - 04/05/2002 : 19:14:10

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
...you can't adjust the turnbuckles of your headstay more tightly, when you want to sail to windward.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Heck--in over a year now (that we've owned Passage), I haven't even SEEN the headstay turnbuckle! It's inside the furler.

Steve: I understand the bending principles, but Don L. said I should have my mast raked about 8" back, which I did not do in our first year. Passage displays a "two finger" weather helm close hauled in up to 15 knots (with the new balanced rudder and virtually no rake)--just the way I like it. More wind means more helm... Since we don't race (we just wave as the Hinkleys and Sabres go by), I don't see why my mast shouldn't stay vertical.

In any case, your summary of sail shaping is a good one--thanks!

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 SR-FK #5032 "Passage" in CT

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