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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Replacing frameless windows

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5908 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/26/2005 : 08:25:27

Has anyone had to replace the type of frameless windows used in the newer C25s? A boat broker told me that they are reasonably easy to replace. He says they are set in an adhesive of some kind (perhaps silicone caulking), and that you cut the old adhesive around them with a razor knife, clean out the old adhesive, put a bead around the window, set the new window in it, and then bend a wooden plank over it, to hold it securely in place until the adhesive sets up. Can anyone confirm or correct this info? (I should explain, that I'm thinking about making an offer on a boat that is not a Catalina, but has the frameless windows of a type similar to the later Catalina models.)

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Edited by - Steve Milby on 03/26/2005 08:58:01

atgep
Master Marine Consultant

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1009 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2005 : 13:16:55

The ones on my boat have screws aiding the sealant hoding them in. I plan on replacing mine soon as they are pretty crazed. As you suggested, the sealant does most of the work. it is important to keep the plastic isolated from the structure. Any screws used should be should be used in oversized holes and the gap filled with sealant.

Plastic is pretty easy to work with, just follow the instructions posted on the web.

Tom.

Edited by - on

Lightnup
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1016 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2005 : 22:40:42

Steve Milby wrote: <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I should explain, that I'm thinking about making an offer on a boat that is not a Catalina<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

What?! Heresy! Doesn't that violate the sacred blood oath of something-or-another that we all had to make when we bought our first Catalina?

Or maybe not, I don't remember.

Steve

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2005 : 09:53:02

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 ...(I should explain, that I'm thinking about making an offer on a boat that is not a Catalina,...)
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Just curious...Is this the Florida retirement boat you have spoke of in the past???

As someone who is always looking for their next boat, I enjoy this time of year because the "For Sale" signs pop up like Crocus flowers.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5908 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2005 : 11:38:14

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">What?! Heresy! Doesn't that violate the sacred blood oath of something-or-another that we all had to make when we bought our first Catalina?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> Yeah, and I still love my old C25, but now I'm on the prowl for a younger, sleeker, livelier, more robust model to enjoy while I'm still fit enough to enjoy her! I hope you guys don't think I'm a dawg!

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Just curious...Is this the Florida retirement boat you have spoke of in the past???<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Yes, although I haven't decided where to keep it. For awhile, I'll probably do some Chesapeake, Florida and Bahamas cruising, and then decide whether I'm up to a serious passage or whether I want to find a home port. I don't have a contract to buy a boat yet, but, have looked at quite a few. Next week I intend to give up my slip for next summer at my home lake. I'm determined to find a suitable boat this spring, so I don't have a boatless summer.

The boat search has been an interesting experience. All the brokers tell you that you should buy the biggest boat you can afford. They imply that a bigger boat will be more comfortable and seaworthy, which is undoubtedly true, but I think their main reason is because, in the sailing centers, there is a glut of big old boats that have obviously been sitting on the hard for a long time. You don't see as many nice, mid-sized boats (34-37') that have been sitting there for long.

Edited by - on

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2005 : 16:12:19

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 Has anyone had to replace the type of frameless windows used in the newer C25s?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I got the following info from Lowell at Catalina Direct:
The new style Lexan frameless windows on the Catalina 22, 25, and 250 are bedded with a silicone based industrial glazing adhesive/sealant that was originally developed for installing windows and curtainwall panels in buildings. It is a very strong, very aggressive adhesive, and to remove Catalina boat windows bedded with it, you will have to cut the adhesive from the inside of the cabin with a thin, sharp blade. I plan to do this on my boat with a putty knife that has been honed on a knife sharpening wheel (motorized low-speed wet grinding stone). Unlike most other kinds of cutting blades like razors, putty knife blades are flexible, and have a full-size handgrip; you need flexibility for this job, and a handle with which to apply some cutting force to the blade. This adhesive is quite strong and is not easy to cut. Catalina Direct sells 14 ounce cartridges of the same adhesive the factory uses, if you want to install your new windows with the OEM sealant. Lowell also told me that it is unlikely that the original window can be removed completely undamaged, especially if it is an older one heavily crazed (and weakened) by long-term UV exposure. Whatever method or tools you use to cut the old window out, the prime consideration is to avoid damaging the fiberglass gelcoat of the bedding surface, so do the cutting with extreme caution and patience.

FYI: I have researched plastics used in outdoor applications and come up with a surprisibng fact: Polycarbonate (Lexan) is NOT very UV resistant by itself, and is actually a poor choice for RV and boat windows that are exposed to sunlight year round. Acrylic has significantly more UV resistance than does Polycarbonate, which is why Sunbrella fabric is woven from an acryllic-based fiber. Polycarbonate has one advantage over sheet Acrylic: it is much stronger and much more resistant to shattering from impacts. The ideal window for a Catalina 25/250 would be an inner sheet of 1/4" smoked Polycarbonate - the same color as the OEM windows, covered on the outside by a sacrificial sheet of 1/8" clear Acrylic lightly bonded to it. The acrylic would take most of the UV damage instead of the more expensive polycarbonate. The only potential problem that comes to mind is that dirt and moisture would be bould to get between the two sheets of material, so whatever method used to attach the acyllic, it would have to be easily removable for cleaning.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2005 : 16:54:22

I am amazed sometimes at the difference in UV destruction. I've seen the common yellow poly braid deteriote in a seasons worth of sun... but have a play set in the back yard 12 years old with a black poly rope cargo ladder in the full sun 24/7 and the rope shows little sign of any aging. I tested and inspected it the other day to insure it was safe for the grandkids and was amazed to find it needing no attention.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5908 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2005 : 17:54:47

Thanks Larry. It sounds like a job I can do, and negotiate with the seller to pay for the materials. Getting the old windows out appears to be the hard part. The boat is a nice one, but all four non-opening windows are cracked and need to be replaced. Once it's done, that should insure a nice, dry boat. I did make an offer on the boat.

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 03/27/2005 : 19:28:30

So Larry,
from what I gather from your discourse on windows catalina uses Lexan, which is not a good choice for boat windows.
Go Figure

Edited by - on

Scooter
Navigator

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USA
228 Posts

Response Posted - 03/28/2005 : 15:45:15

Steve,
I just did a post in the C25 section showing the windows I recently replaced. The hardest part was cutting the originals out. I used one of those large utility knives that has the snap off pieces. The one I had holds about 6 blades. The blades are about 4-5 inches completely pushed out. I broke the blade off about 3 times until I got the hang of it but it was long enough. It was "just" flexible enough. The original sealant was tough too.

What I did right:
1. shopped around. I could have done it myself (cut the windows, etc..) but I couldn't find a "local" place where I could get anything but full (4X8) sheets of material. If I messed up, it could get costly. The sheets were not cheap. I decided to let them do the work for the $100-200 price difference. If I had more time.... Maybe I would have done the material myself. I would have done several and offered reasonable price for forum members in exchange for the help I get here.
2. Got a discount because they had not done C25 windows before. I sent my original windows (one side) for them to use as a template. They gave me a discount for my efforts. They fit good.
3. Filled up the remaining "pocket" with black silicone. This probably won't help much with the actual seal but helps hide the white pocket as your looking from the outside. The window "show" the white pocket if you don't cover it.
4. Took the time to get the pocket completely clean. Really had to work at it.
5. Used the "provided" depth tool for drilling the holes. The new windows had more holes thean the old windows. I was lazy and did not fill in the old holes with resin prior to seating the windows. As long as the sealant holds this should not be an issue. (should this be on the wrong list)

What I did wrong:
1. The sealant was not wide enough for the entire "pocket". On the first window I did not put the sealant close enough to the beveled edge for it to "ooze" out far enough to get a smooth "sealant filled" seam. I ended up cutting down the length of sealant tape (it came in a roll) and wedging in to fill the gap. I have no doubts it will seal well. That stuff is tough. Also to sealant is still just over an inch wide. I had no issue with the curve of the pocket either. The one window had no curve and the other was held with the screws. I still spot checked for a good seal. You only get one chance at that. Once that sealant takes hold it's there. I poked the screws through to help place the window. On a hot day there would be some wiggle room but not much.
I spoke with CC and they only order that width sealant. Do not think it's an issue though. If I had the time I would have asked for more sealant. I may measure before doing the next window and see. CC was helpfull in explaining how the process worked. CC does mainly larger boats. That's the reason they gave for not having done a C25 before.
2. I only did one side. I will wait for a "hot" day to do the other side. This should help the sealant "ooze" better. Realize, the sealant isn't going to ooze much anyway. It's hefty stuff. Not at all like silicone or 4200 or 5100 etc... This should be on the "things right" list????

Bottom Line:

It's not that hard. Like most things the prep time takes the most time.

Also if you're interested they now have the template for the C25s in there computer.

Scott

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5908 Posts

Response Posted - 03/28/2005 : 16:54:52

Thanks, Scott. Somehow I missed that thread. Nice job!

Boy, I like it when I'm staring a job in the face and people say, "It's not that hard."

Edited by - on

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