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Tips for Buying a Cat 25 Needed

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Pokey uh da LBC
1st Mate

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35 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/01/2005 : 14:31:27

I want to buy a Catalina 25 to race and daysail in the Long Beach, CA area.

Please give me some tips on what to look for when shopping for an older C25.

Specifically:

Are there advantages/disadvantages to boats made in certain years?

What aftermarket or non-standard rigging items do non-spin C25 raceboats use? For example, does anyone use a traveler? Do racers move the jib tracks inboard?

Are there some areas that I should check because they are particularly prone to failure?

What optional features do you really think are important?

How much should I expect to pay for a new set (135 and main) of sails?

Are the older boats prone to blistering?

How about dinette vs. standard interior?

Etc.

Thanks for your help,

Pokey

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 04/01/2005 : 15:54:04

Hey Pokey, welcome and I hope you buy a C25 and join our San Diego Fleet 7 (closest fleet to you). We have some members in the Long Beach area so you can find some friends close by, maybe start a new fleet!

On our main web site we have 2 great articles about buying a C25. Go here and read the "shopping for" and "self appraising" articles.

http://www.catalina25-250.org/tech/tech25/tech25.html

Now as to your questions. I have a 1978 fin and its fast. 12th in class in Newport to Ensenada, 4th in the Nationals the year they wee held in Long Beach.

But the later years (say from 1983 to 1989) have many cosmetic and safety improvements that are worth the money.

If you're going to trailer, a later model wing keel is considered the best.

If you're going to slip, a fin keel is faster and points higher.

On later boats the jib tracks are inboard. Mine have been moved in board. Only the stock traveller is allowed by C25 class rules, but many people have upgraded the control lines. A backstay adjuster is an important racing upgrade, as are lines led aft, whisker pole, and spinnaker pole. Also an after market balanced rudder is available.

My boat has it all, including epoxy encapsulated and computer faired iron fin keel (www.indiscipline.org)

Full batten, loose footed main (standard rig) $851.25
135 is about $600. I have 60, 110, 135 laminate, 155 laminate, 135 roller furling, and 0.5oz spinnaker.

You may want to consider a Tall Rig - I have a standard. Tall rig has a mast 2 feet higher and a boom 1 foot lower. A little more sail. PHRF 223 versus 228.

Zero blisters on my 25 year old boat.

I dislike the dinette but its a matter of preference. Mine is a very rare interior called the pedestal table. I've gutted it and built my own interior anyways.

The C25 is a great cruiser / racer and can easily beat it's PHRF rating. Few boats can outpoint me and I can beat anything on the water under 30 feet casual day sailing (mylar sail race boats excepted). Its a great boat for single handing.

I intend to race Newport - Ensenada next year in the PHRF, double handed division and go for the Frank Butler trophy (fasted Catalina on corrected time). Join me? Race on! Also this summer I will single hand San Diego to San Miguel Island, so this is a boat that can do it all.

Edited by - JimB517 on 04/01/2005 15:55:31

TRogers
1st Mate

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USA
90 Posts

Response Posted - 04/01/2005 : 16:14:21

Wow, no blisters in 25 years? Is your boat in the water year round or does it come out regularly?

My 82 fin keel (purhcased about two years ago) which has pretty much been in the water non-stop for most of its life from what I have been able to determine. It has quite a few blisters (nothing threatening hull integrity) that I've been working on since last fall.

---

One thing I wish my 82 had is the fuel locker separated from the lazerette. I think that started in 83. Occasionally get some fumes migrating to the cabin.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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3285 Posts

Response Posted - 04/01/2005 : 16:27:47

I should say no blisters since I've owned it. The PO did a full strip and epoxy bottom job (lucky me).

Blisters are not one of our "known problems" so I wouldn't worry too much unless you see a boat that looks like the craters of the moon.

Full time slipped since new!

Recent bottom job:

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 04/01/2005 : 16:27:55

Pokey,

lets start by saying that you can't go wrong with a Catalina 25 for your intended purpose although there are faster racers around. Rather than think new vs. old think about the three types of keel that are available. If you are going to race get a fin first(best), shoal draft second, wing last. If just cruising/day sailing, shoal draft or wing. When you've located likely candidates get a professinal to look at it. They can tell you what if anything is wrong with it - how much you'll have to put into it. You can check the general condition of sails and ancillary equipment like life jackets, etc, again to assess future costs.

Many of us race our Catalina's but primarily for recreation. You'll find that few of us have purchased specialized race equipment. Most concentrate on making day sailing-cruising easy and safe. If the outcome helps in their club races so be it. Main sail outhauls, loose-footed full batten main sails, rigid boom vangs, topping lifts, autopilots, the utility of a second reef in the main, have all been discussed here and are non-standard as far as the C25 is concerned.

I don't think many of us have had a blister problem with their C25's. Perhaps a few that were badly neglected. My boat came with a 10 year blister warrenty, which I believe was the industry standard when I bought my boat in 1989 - if a hull warrenty was offered that is.

You'll get varying opinions regarding dinette vs. traditional. Some like the traditional because it offers the possibility of building a queen size bed between the setees and it's a more open, airy arrangment. You'l have to judge for yourself when you start looking at boats.

Sails can be purchased new and used inexpensive and expensive. I paid $1100 for a new main and 110 jib two years ago, $1300 for an asymetrical spinnaker 5 years ago. On the other hand I just sold my old main an jib for....$110? 120? You'll need to do some research on line at the various sail lofts to get a real feel for the cost of sails.

I hope this helps a little. I'm sure others will add their thoughts.

Al
GALLIVANT #5801

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 04/01/2005 : 18:19:05

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by TRogers
 

One thing I wish my 82 had is the fuel locker separated from the lazerette. I think that started in 83. Occasionally get some fumes migrating to the cabin.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Tom, what is your sail number? The data that Larry has collected shows the external fuel locker showing up in the late 81 models. My 82 #2790 has it.

Pokey, this is a set of questions that often leads to a spirited discussion which always ends with the realization that if you buy a well found boat you will grow to love it regardless of the details. That said, I am very opinionated so I will tell you what I wish I had.
I wish I had a flat floor fin keel with a traditional interior. The design issues were worked out by 82 so that is a good year to start from. (Chain plates, spreader brackets, fuel locker etc.) Flat floors only came in the very last few boats, basically '89s. Traditional interiors feel larger and unless you are small a dinette is too confining. Boats should have fin keels, everything else is a compromise. I like my full length toe rail genoa tracks, the latter models had them dramatically shortened when they were moved in.( I assume any class racing must be done with the stock rail position Jim.) The boat has a lot of freeboard and a moderate ballast to displacement ratio so a tall rig makes the boat pretty tender, if you are not in a predominantly light air area I would be happy with a std rig, however I would not walk away from a tall rig if the rest of the boat was right. Some speak of how fast our boats are, we have a long waterline for our LOA but the boat is not a responsive boat. Yes we are fast compared to a lot of CCA and earlier designs but we are also highly compromised but our cruiser amenities.

As for advise that you should follow rather than opinions; don't buy the first boat you find, look at enough to recognize a good one. The good ones are out there.

Edited by - on

Pokey uh da LBC
1st Mate

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35 Posts

Response Posted - 04/01/2005 : 20:22:58

Thanks for the great input guys!

I have looked at a few C25s.

I can't beleive there's no fleet in the LA/LB harbor. I'll bet there are at least 100 C25s moored in the local marinas.

One last question...

What are the negatives to a deck stepped (pivoting) mast? Will I give up any speed with this setup?

thanks again,

P

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 04/01/2005 : 22:24:22

Our sailplan is small enough and our rig strong enough that a deck stepped mast is fine. The J-24 is keel stepped but the Merit and the Capris are deck stepped with much greater forces than our boats generate. The speed that our rig gives up is due to the modest sailplan on a masthead rig. As a masthead rig we have fewer "gears" than a fractional rig.

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 04/01/2005 : 23:34:59

>... Will I give up any speed with this setup?

IMHO.. it really doesn't make much of any difference at all.
Actually, your designed boatspeed really isn't that important for racing.

Any racing you do with a C25 against other boats will be probably be done on a 'handicap' basis. Agreed-upon standard speed ratings of all the boats in the regatta will be used to adjust their finishing times.

This enables a 'slower' design that is well-sailed to beat a 'faster' boat that has been poorly sailed.

The alternative to mixed fleet racing is buying a boat with an active 'one-design' fleet. In a one-design fleet all the boats must adhere to strict model specifications (and often other restrictions regarding crew weight, rigging, professional crew members yada).

I think the most popular west coast one-design fleets in the mid-20' size range are (currently) the J-24's and Melges 24's. They are fast, responsive, (and expensive) but you wouldn't want to spend the night on one!

Another great mid-20's boat is the Moore 24. Designed as a 'mini ocean racer' they are fast, stiff and quite seaworthy. A number of them have been raced in the Transpac to Hawaii. Again though, the accomodations on the C25 are quite luxurious compared to the Moore.

When it comes to a combination of good sailing characteristics, good accomodations and affordable price, the C25 is pretty darn hard to beat.

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 04/02/2005 : 08:12:53

Hi Pokey,
As you can already see, one of the best features of owning a Catalina 25 is the great support you can receive. This support comes from our association where you can get lots of advice and help. The Catalina factory parts dept is very helpful (when I needed a new rudder for my 89 they built me one and had it to me in two weeks). Catalina Direct, which is a retailer of parts and upgrade kits is incredibly helpful.
These are but a few reasons that Catalina owners are very loyal, and many buy more than one Catalina sailboat as their needs/wants change.
Good luck, and please join our association when you buy a C25

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/02/2005 : 09:58:36

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Pokey uh da LBC
 ...does anyone use a traveller? Do racers move the jib tracks inboard?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Traveller?...What traveller?...The stock transom mounted traveller on the C25 is rather lacking in its range of adjustment. Additionally, prior to gybing or tacking, warn your guests so they can duck, or they might get whacked with the mainsheet.

As for the jib tracks, I have the model with the long toe rail jib track which works pretty good with my 135 roller furling headsail. The problem I have with this setup is that when I reef to a smaller headsail size and move the genoa cars forward, the jib sheets get moved further outboard when normally you would move them inboard. This more outboard sheeting with smaller headsails doesn't allow the best trim, especially to weather.

On my last boat, when running a 110, the jib sheet ran midway between the mast and the shrouds.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Pokey uh da LBC
 ...How about dinette vs. standard interior?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Since I have neither traditional nor L-shaped models (I have the dinette), I can't really comment on their pro's and con's, but I believe the dinette offers the easiest conversion to a queen sized berth. All you need is an inflatable queen mattress and absoutely nothing else.

As a matter of fact, on my boat the mattress stays in place for most of the season because the kids just love going below and lounging, resting, playing cards, games,...etc, on the large, comfortable bed. This worked great on weeklong cruise last season. Having the bed in place doesn't really matter to me because if I'm at the boat, it's underway and I'm topsides tending to business.

Edited by - dlucier on 04/02/2005 14:01:52

Pokey uh da LBC
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 04/02/2005 : 21:32:52

More good comments. This is about the most active single-boat message board I've ever visited.

My question regarding the deck-stepped mast was misstated. I originally thought that there were two mast-step configurations: one that swiveled and one that didn't. Now I’m thinking they all swivel (which makes sense for a 25 footer).

The 1979 boat I looked at today seems to be very sturdy, but needs to be fully re-rigged. The deck and topsides are stiff with minimal oxidation. The aluminum widow frames look almost new. Although the boat is an early model, it has a stern pulpit that looks original. The sails are OK for cruising (110 RF, and all-purpose main). But I’ll need at least two new sails for racing, probably three. The boat only has a six hp outboard that is mounted on the port (wrong) side. The other strange thing is that it has a single un-adjustable backstay with the tang mounted to starboard. Is this normal?

So… to get the boat ready to club race, I’ll need to redo the bottom; buy sails; make or buy a balanced rudder (the current rudder is still sound); replace every line and halyard; add a second jib halyard; add an outhaul, cunningham, and backstay adjuster; traveler purchases; lead some lines aft, and the list goes on.

Pretty daunting.

Sail fast,

P

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 04/02/2005 : 23:20:38

>The other strange thing is that it has a single un-adjustable backstay with the tang mounted to >starboard. Is this normal?

The adjustable backstay was an option... some boats didn't come with them.

>The boat only has a six hp outboard that is mounted on the port (wrong) side

Standard config for early C25's. Nothing really wrong about it. In fact, I like it better than starboard side.. IMHO it puts the outboard motor handle away from the rudder so it has more clearance to swing. Also for a right-handed person, I think it puts the starter pull rope/motor mount bracket and engine controls at a better location.

If you have a real interest in racing, the lighter the outboard the better. You want just enough push to get you in and out of the slip. Selecting an engine for cruising and weekending is a different matter.

Commentary:

IMHO Older C25's sail just fine with the stock rudders. The early boats were a little lighter than later models and may have a better 'inherent' speed (all other things being equal). The name of the game in PHRF racing is to sail to your rating (handicap) or beyond it. Serious club racers have a lightweight outboard, empty interior, drained water tanks, tiny battery, etc.

I don't know how many C25's you'll find out on the market with a full inventory of 'racing' sails.

Most people who have a primary 'focus' on racing will choose other (racier) boats. Not to say you can't race a C25 successfully, it's just that most people who have C25's get them to have a comfortable daysailer/weekender.

Every boat you see on the market will be a trade-off in price vs. updated hardware. Upside about starting with a 'basic' hull... You'll get to choose the gear you want and set up the boat the way you want. Downside is that you'll be buying new equipment ($).

Edited by - on

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 04/03/2005 : 20:48:38

If you are going for a Fin keel, check the keel bolts of any prospective boat you look at. The older boats had a cast iron keel with carbon steel keel bolts. The later fin keels were lead with stainless steel keel bolts. All wing keels are lead/stainless bolts. All C-25 swing keels are cast iron. If you are going to keep the boat in a salt water marina, a lead keel is preferrable to a cast iron keel. I have heard of at least one older Fin keel boat - Jim Baumgart's "Indiscipline III", in which the carbon steel keel bolts were completely rusted out and had to be drilled out and new bolts installed (this was a pretty expensive repair). The biggest concerns with older Catalina 25's: 1. Dry rot of the plywood deck core, especially around high-stress points like chainplates. 2. Pivot hardware or cable failure on the swing keels. 3. Leaky windows on the older aluminum frames. 4. Keel bolts on cast iron fin keels (mostly a problem only in salt water). 4. Blistering and delamination of the hull (only a few boats have been reported with really serious blistering). Of all the above stated problem areas, the most serious, and most difficult and expensive to repair, is probably the dryrot issue. Any Marine surveyor you contract to evaluate a prospective boat should do a thorough inspection with a moisture meter and tap hammer on all surfaces that are plywood cored. A few people in this Forum have faced dryrot repairs on their boat, and it's a massive undertaking. A typical scenario is a rotten cockpit sole - fixing this really well usually invloves cutting out the entire upper skin of fiberglass, scraping out the rotten plywood, placing new plywood and epoxying it in, then epoxying the cockpit floor skin back onto the new plywood, and finally filling and sanding all the cut edges. Making this kind of fiberglass repair with "perfect" matching colors and textures is almost impossible for a non-professional. To have a shop do it will almost certainly cost several thousand dollars, maybe more than the whole boat is worth. So check out any prospective boat purchase very carefully and pay the $300~$350 a marine surveyor will charge. If the boat is more than 10 years old, your insurance company will probably insist on a survey anyway before they will underwrite a policy on the boat.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
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Response Posted - 04/04/2005 : 11:59:28

One correction - my old very rusted keel bolts are still installed. They were treated with carbolic acid and then bitumen (tar). I have 6 new "sistered" 3/4 inch , 6 inch deep stainless bolts installed alongside. My keel ain't going anywhere but to windward. The repair cost $900 and was done in the slip with the poptop up. But its time consuming - about 1 bolt per day. Cast iron is hard to drill and tap. A special drill press and drill bits are required.

Keep the keel well dry (I get water in there when I clean my knotmeter).

Edited by - on

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