Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.
I am somewhat new to sailing, and have a few questions about the C250 in high wind conditions...
Last weekend I went sailing in 10-20 mph gusty wind. On the lake that I sail, the wind changes directions quickly and unpredicably given the canyons around the lake. I reefed the sail.
On a few occasions while close hauled, the wind changed suddenly causing excessive heel. (25-35 deg incl) It is scary (to me anyway) when the wind is blowing perpedicular to a close hauled sail which tilts the boat in an uncontrolled fashion. On another occasion, wind changed putting me in irons, when jib caught air the bow swung around. By this point I had lost forward momentum, so boat was perpendicular to wind with close hauled sails! I immediately released the sheets, was that the right move?
Is there any concern that this can result in a knock down? How common are knock downs on the C250WK, is it forgiving?
I'm also relatively new to sailing and can't speak to the 250 but I found out that what I considered to be approaching excessive heeling on my C25 was only mild compared to the angle that my sailboat racer friend had my boat at several weekends ago (see my signature thumbnail pic). Your boat will most likely be just fine at a heeling angle far beyond what you think is reasonable.
Don't know if you can tell in the signature pic but once you realize that it's actually safe to sail at that angle and speed, a big sh*t-eating grin will become a permanent fixture on your face.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Lightnup</i> <br />...Don't know if you can tell in the signature pic but once you realize that it's actually safe to sail at that angle and speed, a big sh*t-eating grin will become a permanent fixture on your face.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
When you say you reefed the sail, you don't say whether you partially rolled up the jib or whether you tucked a reef in the mainsail. It sounds like the winds were strong enough that you probably should have done both. If you reduce sail area, and the boat is still overpowered, then don't hesitate to reduce it more, until the boat becomes controllable. If the boat begins to heel excessively, the best thing to do is ease the mainsheet, because as soon as you relieve the pressure on the mainsail, the boat will usually stand upright again. If you release the mainsheet and the boat is still heeling excessively, then release the jibsheet as well. As a new sailor, you should reduce your sail area more than experienced sailors, until you have more experience at controlling the boat in strong, gusting winds.
A hard knockdown should be avoided, because it stresses the boat and rigging and scares the crew, but, on an inland lake, a knockdown seldom results in significant damage. Sailboat designers know we sailors are going to get knocked down occasionally, and they design the boats to tolerate that sort of thing fairly well. In strong, gusting winds, it's good practice to have everyone wear pfds, in case the boat lurches and someone falls overboard.
With experience, you'll learn when the conditions are so bad that you should stay at the dock. Likewise, you'll have confidence that you can control the boat in any conditions within your skill level. As your skill and confidence build, you'll find yourself going out in more challenging conditions.
As for what angles are comfortable; once you learn that "down" has nothing to do with the cockpit floor (sole) you adapt. It is when people try to keep their feet on the sole that they freak. I often am standing on the far seat edge and occasionally on the seat back. One of the hardest yet best things to do with a frightened wife is to put her on the low side, lying length wise along the seat with her back against the cabin bulkhead. Now the axis of rotation is along the length of her body rather than across her waist. People lay at 90% all the time on their sides in a bed, 35 or 40 degrees is nothing at all in that position. If you look at Steve, (having fun Steve?!) you see that he is in a position that will exhaust him after a while. If you sit with your back against the seat back and put both feet up and a little apart against the lip of the far seat you can drive at that degree of heal all day. You will still feel the burn later but not like Steve probably did if he sat like that very long. The point is you do not "hang on" you stand when healing a lot. Here I am about as casual as I can be at this angle but note my hand on the winch, I am hanging on. The next skipper is doing it right, back square feet up.
I LOVE that second picture Frank. Both have already been added to my screen savers. You're right about my position in my sig picture. Since that was on a relatively narrow section of the ICW, we had to tack regularly so I didn't have to stay in that position very long. If I had, it would have quickly become painful.
Sucks Steve, I thought you were just poseing for a photo opt. Kurt, the tenderness of the C250 is well documented on this forum. The thing that must be emphasized is to learn to read the water for wind direction and gusts. In last years Mug Race, the first for us in our 250, we thought we had a near death experience after getting knocked down while doing a 90 270 in winds off the back side of some thunderstorms. With the boom in the water on two occassions and finally the mainsheet stop knot being torn out with the sheet hanging out from the boom end 8 feet out on the port side, we new we had lost it for sure. In our C25 it would not have been a big deal just eased out the main and the jib to get the gunnel just out of the water and press on. What I have learned about the 250 is always leave the dock and raise the main with the first reef already pulled in. The main is the power sail so never have the mainsheet out of your hand if the winds are gusty above 12 knots. The 250 will round up with the big rudder at 32 degrees of heel if you do nothing. Always trim to maintain 20 degrees of heel or less. The boat is faster and sails very comfortablely at these angles. Last learn to read the tilt angles off the horizon not the gunnel, like a 25, since you can not see them because of the boats design. Just remember she is quick to roll, but will stop almost as abrupt as she starts and ease the main early when approaching gusts.
I agree with Frog .... always a good idea to have the mainsheet in hand on a blustery day. Ease it out and spill the wind out of the main as the wind pipes up. On the WK, you can also let the traveler slide over too. As gusts hit, I usually try to point closer into the wind. I usually follow a sail reduction strategy of 1. pull in the jib halfway 2. Single reef the main 3. Double reef the main and pull the jib in to "storm jib" size 4. Start the engine, get he sails down, and get to some shelter! Actually, I find being out in double reefed conditions isn't much fun ..... despite the sh*t eating grins I see above. Sailing should be fun, not a struggle to survive that leaves you questioning what you're doing. One nice thing about lake sailing ..... you're usually not stuck out on the water trying to defy mother nature when things get really bad.
I encountered some serious gusts on Lake Pleasant while I was there. One particular gust caught me by surprise and broached me good! (maybe broach isn't the right word, what is the difference between a broach and a roundup?) From what I can tell from my short time on a 250 WB it is indeed tender at first but seems to harden up quite a bit around fifteen degrees. Do any other WB sailors agree/disagree with this assessment?
To a small-boat inland lake sailor -- our 250 is the biggest vessel in my experience -- this discussion of its "tender" nature is comedic. When sailing my 12' scow as a boy it was no more than breathing to sheet out quickly to avoid the knockdown (or, having been knocked down, to step over the gunwale onto the centerboard and set the boat right). This sort of sailing engenders an attitude of wariness or defensive skippering in which it is unthinkable to have the mainsheet out of your hands when hard puffs are even a remote likelihood. To me the 250 seems stiff and forgiving, but then I am not on the ocean, nor am I against reducing sail when it looks the wise course. Heeling is fun but brings with it the evitable deceleration and in 12-20 winds I would rather furl some jib and speed along on the level.
As noted previously, the C250 definitely has its own character with regards to gusty wind conditions.
My last boat was a C27 and it had a little more "solid" feel when hit by gusty winds. It would absorb a little more, but took longer to accelerate with the wind. When I first took my new C250 out, I had some knockdowns and had to learn the "feel" of the way the boat sails. Now I can see/feel the wind when it gust, play out a little main sheet and the boat just accelerates through the gusts in lieu of knock downs I was first experiancing. After a few sails in different conditions, I am now confident in the abilities of this boat.
I don't think the boat deserves the "tender" comments it gets. It is a different design with more power generated by the main sail. You just have to learn how it sails and the boat will respond.
I reef a little early on the main with my C250 than my old C27 due to the larger main (I used to reef my head sail more on my C27 due to it being the power sail on it's design). I don't find this a problem or a weakness, just a different approach to get the most out of the boat.
Thanks for the words of advice everyone. I am still getting used to the C250 and the tips you've given will help alot! I really don't want to scare the Admiral and crew again the next time we go out.
A roundup and broach have some similarities but also differences. A broach places the boat at some point in the process with its beam on the wind, more often happening when the boat is pushed too hard down wind and the hull, keel and rudder drag counter the power in the sails and the boat trips over herself and rounds up.
A broach could endure a knockdown but is dangerous on larger boats because of the tremendous forces involved with the righting stability working against the overpowered sail plan when beam on the wind. As well as overstressing the rig, a broach may place the boat in jepoardy of flooding an open hatch. On the light 250 however, a broach doesn't unduely strain the rigging or present any flooding issues as she will round up very quickly when heeled excessively. Also, her coaming is quite high and she has no side decks so she is not prone to water coaming over her rail.
A captain has the responsibility for both the physical as well as emotional safety of crew. Allowing a boat to broach does not engender confidence in the captain or the boat and the crew will sometimes suffer emotional strain. A good captain will do all in his power to avoid a broach, especially with an unseasoned crew aboard.
Regarding sailing in high winds, the 250 needs reefing (sail reduction) sooner than many other sailboats. There are several personal perspectives on which sail to reduce first, etc. and it may be that all the variables of a situation play a part in that.
The 250 (water ballast for sure) will do quite well working to weather under double reefed main only in high winds and tacks quickly and easily with a good helm. Running off wind however in high winds, she will be prone to broaching under double reefed main only, especially with much sea running as the sea stalls the rudder momentarily as it rolls under.
Off wind, I prefer headsail only when sail has to be limited greatly with one caveat... make sure the jib is kept small enough that the boat doesn't reach hull speed. Reaching hull speed with a jib alone could overstress the forestay. My personal limit is one knot less than hull speed offwind under headsail only. It could be that hull speed could be enjoyed by running hard off wind under double reefed main and a warp. I've never run a warp on my 250 yet however, and can't verify that.
I do not disagree about the wb 250 hardening up as expeience and observation has shown that this boat will handle some wind if one stays aware and keeps the mainsheet in hand so as to let out that main. Your experience as a newbe on the wb seems very similar to mine for the first year until a seasoned and most capable sailing friend took over and fostered confidence in this boat as he allowed it to heel seriously(at least I thought so) as he casually sat behind the wheel and his wife casually conversed w/us. Fair winds
Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ. The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.