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Why Cetol?

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Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1772 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/07/2002 : 09:30:26

Hi everyone ... Freya is going in the water in early May if it kills me. I have been working like a mad man to get her restored, and I can almost see the light at the end of the tunnel.

I should have titled this "Why not marine spar varnish?" I refinished the exterior teak with Cetol (light), and I moved on to interior cabin teak. I decided to try marine spar varnish (clear, high gloss) on the teak cabinet door and drawer in the galley ... they look beautiful!

Why not use marine spar varnish for the exterior teak? It is water proof, UV protected, and the clear varnish leaves the teak looking like teak (no orange color that some have complained about with Cetol).

Duane ... I'm a teak purist like you ... have you ever heard of using marine spar varnish on the exterior teak? Does it "ding" too easily or something?

Thanks, and happy splash time to all!

Buzz Maring, C-25 SK/SR #68, "Freya"

Edited by - on

Douglas
Master Marine Consultant

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1595 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2002 : 11:48:17

Having at one time owned a clasic wooden boat that was almost 100% bright work I feel qualified to reply. Yes you can use varnish on the exterior. However and thats a big HOWEVER it is very labor intensive. Its not durable and will require constant attention and touch up. There are several good products that will give you the same results with less trouble. One product is called Honey Teak. Honey Teak is more of an epoxy than a varnish and is very tough. Cetol also has other products that will work. Those who complain of the color problem are using the pigmented cetol. There is a cetol primer and gloss clear coat that would serve you well. It all comes down to how much you enjoy doing the woodwork. Hope this helps. Oh and you could have a look on the web at Wooden Boat magazine. Im sure you could find an artical or two.

Edited by - on

Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2002 : 12:22:04

Buzz: I, too, use varnish down below in the cabin, and it looks great. But I have used Cetol for 10 years on exterior work. Exterior varnish will look great, but to be really effective, it takes 7-8 coats minimum. Great jobs will use 10-11 coats. But anytime a ding goes through to the teak, it will start to peel and discolor, requiring sanding and refinishing immediately. Once varnish starts to go, it is a big mess, and a tough job to sand it all off. Cetol doesn't look as good initially, perhaps, but with the gloss coat over the base coats, it will look good a year later. One coat each season has kept my boat looking good over a long period of time, without the time I would have invested in varnish. Down below: no UV, no H2O elements, etc. Varnish works great here.

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2002 : 14:34:51

Why Cetol, Buzz? Because most of us believe that it gives the best finish for the amount of work involved, lasts longer and is much easier to maintain (i.e. more time to go sailing! <img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle>
Derek

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Shelby
Navigator

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USA
155 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2002 : 15:03:52

What Derek said....

Shelby on "Third S" '82 C25 #3208 SKSR

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Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1772 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2002 : 15:34:56

OK ... thanks y'all ... I'm glad I used Cetol on the exterior teak! BTW, the Honey Teak idea sounds good, too ... maybe next time I do the exterior I'll try that.

Now ... everyone go sail ... or pretend to ...

Buzz Maring, C-25 SK/SR #68, "Freya"

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2002 : 17:03:53

Buzz - a loolow-up:
Honey Teak is a magnificent product and gives (IMHO) a better looking finish than even varnish, lasts much longer and is relatively easy to maintain. However,
1. It is expensive 2. It requires careful mixing and 3. It is VERY labor intensive (we used it on the teak strips on the rear deck of the big Cat).
Derek

Edited by - on

At Ease
Admiral

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672 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2002 : 19:25:00

Cetol is wonderful...but how do you remove the few errant drops on the deck? Acetone is a bit too potent.

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2002 : 08:47:41

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Cetol is wonderful...but how do you remove the few errant drops on the deck? Acetone is a bit too potent.

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
We took all the exterior teak off the boat and finished it at home. You might try Mineral Spirits, it is what the back of the can says to use to clean the brushes; although that isn't exactly gel coat friendly either.

dw

Duane Wolff
"The Flying Wasp"
C-25, #401 std,sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 national Org.
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2dc20b3127cce9cd2f45b211a0000004010" border=0>

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2002 : 09:27:41

Duane,

This winter I removed my teak for refinishing(Cetol) and, if we hit some decent temps this week, I am going to reinstall. Anyway, my questions are;

1) What did you use for a bedding compound? After some research, I've decided to use a one part polysulfide(3M 101) marine sealant instead of the usual bedding compounds like Dolfinite or Interlux 214.

2) How did you apply your sealant? Did you put a dime sized glop over the screw hole, put a bead around the hole, or some other technique?

3) A salesperson at BoatUS told me that if I used a 3m 101 type sealant, I should put the sealant on the boat, attach the teak and just snug it up, but don't tighten it. Then after the sealant has had time to set up, tighten it down. Did you use a similar/different technique?

If you have time to respond, thanks. If not, you are probably down at the boat and I can't hold that against you. <img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle>

Don Lucier, Northstar
C25 SR/FK

Edited by - dlucier on 04/08/2002 12:14:28

Edited by - on

John Mason
Admiral

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USA
687 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2002 : 17:08:23

Don,
I use BoatLife LifeSeal and do it just as the your salesman in part(3) says. I snug it up 'til there is about 1/32" to 1/16" distance between the part and the deck. Then, after the sealant cures, tighten it down.

John Mason - Ali Paroosa
1982 - FK/SR #3290

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2002 : 19:09:28

John,

Funny you mention LifeSeal, because I was at BoatUS today looking at BoatLife caulk. The LifeSeal is a polyurethane caulk. West Marine says that polyurethane caulk is:

"Recommended for permanent bonding because of its enormous adhesive strength. Good for hull/deck joints and bondingthru-hull fittings. Incompatible with ABS and Lexan. Not for use where it may need to be removed"

Now the catalog does say that the LifeSeal is, "unlike most polyurethanes, can be removed without damage to gelcoats".

Would a one part polysulfide caulk, like 3M 101, be a better choice? I was told that the polysulfides are less like glue and if you ever need to remove something it may be easier. What do you think? I get just as confused with sealants as I do bottom paints?<img src=icon_smile_question.gif border=0 align=middle>

Don Lucier, Northstar
C25 SR/FK

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2002 : 20:50:28

<center>Bedding Exterior Teak Trim</center>

As I understand it, the most commonly used bedding compound chemistries are, in increasing order of strength: silicone (i.e. GE Silicone Seal tub & tile caulk, etc.), polysulfide (3M-101,), and polyurethane (3M-5200). Boat Life makes their versions of all three also, and I kinda like theirs, but I doubt there's much real difference between major brands. Most people seem to agree that polyurethane should be considered permanent. I've heard lots of people say that silicone is strictly a weak gasket material, not strong enough to be considered an adhesive. Polysulfide would be somewhere in between.

On three wood trimmed boats so far, I've always used silicone seal to bed wooden deck trim and accessories. Properly applied (enough goo to squeeze out, fasteners large enough, close enough, and tight enough to provide rigid mechanical attachment, etc.), mine has never leaked. When things need refinishing, I remove the screws and pry the bright parts off to avoid making a mess on the deck.

When I first got my C-25, the exterior teak was bedded with something that looked like construction grade Poly Seam Seal. That stuff was stronger than healthy teak! By the time I had all dozen or so pieces off, several of them were cracked or broken, and there were spots where the "bedding compound" had ripped gelcoat right up off the deck laminate! I reinstalled everything that needed to be watertight using silicone seal. I applied masking tape to both the teak and deck where they meet. I then put a glob of silicone goo on the deck more than sufficient to provide squeeze out all around when tightening the screws. I made no attempt to clean up the excess until it had jelled. After it had set up in a few days, I gently ran a sharp razor knife blade along the masking tape, neatly cutting loose the sqeezed out worm of silicone. Alternatively, some people carefully wipe away the excess while it's still wet, being careful not to smear it past the width of the masking tape.

When I recently relocated the cabin top hand rails (to make room for rope clutches), the year old silicone bond was so strong I nearly cracked the teak getting them off. I ended up driving a sharp putty knife under them to cut the bedding compound loose. If that's what it's like getting "too weak" bedding to release, I think I'll pass on the stronger stuff, thanks.

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2002 : 21:16:50

Leon,

I was already leaning towards the polysulfides(either LifeCalk, 3M 101, or WM MultiCaulk), but I wanted a second opinion. Thanks for providing it for me. <img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>
Additionally, those are some good application tips. Again, thanks for the advice.

Don Lucier, Northstar
C25 SR/FK

Edited by - dlucier on 04/08/2002 21:18:31

Edited by - on

Bristle
Admiral

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USA
834 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2002 : 21:45:00

Sounds like Leon found 3M 5200 the first time around... Silicone makes a great sealing gasket, but the tough part is keeping it from smearing on the teak or the deck--once it does, it's a bear to remove. Silicone also doesn't do well when exposed to UV, but that's not much of a consideration here. Polysulfides like Life Caulk are simplest for cleaning up--generally with a damp rag.

I used silicone to reseal the upper chainplates (after removing the frames on the deck) because of its elasticity--the chainplates move a little under stress, which can put stress on the seal. I'll use Life Caulk or equivalent on the teak, stanchions, and new hardware I'm mounting--assuming that I will want to remove, clean, and rebed every x years. Polyurethanes are dangerous, as Leon found out, except for structural things that will never have to come apart. Nothing on deck is permanent--the question is, can you renew it when needed.

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 SR-FK #5032 "Passage" in CT

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MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 04/12/2002 : 11:42:24

I just finished 3 coats on some oak. The color seems very natural. It kind of has a hony oak tone, doesn't seem to cause the orangingish color it does on teak.

Matt
EC Rider
Cat 25 86'
FK SR

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 04/12/2002 : 11:47:42

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I just finished 3 coats on some oak. The color seems very natural. It kind of has a hony oak tone, doesn't seem to cause the orangingish color it does on teak.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Matt,
I have tried Cetol on varying types of teak, Burmese, Thailand, and one other that I can't remember. The orange color only appeared on the Burmese stuff.... I should have plenty of Pictures tomorrow. Hopefully..

dw

Duane Wolff
"The Flying Wasp"
C-25, #401 std,sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 national Org.
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2dc20b3127cce9cd2f45b211a0000004010" border=0>

Edited by - on

John Mason
Admiral

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USA
687 Posts

Response Posted - 04/12/2002 : 15:52:48

Don,
BoatLife LifeSeal is a combination of polyurethane and silicone and can be removed without damaging the deck. But, unlike pure silicone, does grip pretty well.

John Mason - Ali Paroosa
1982 - FK/SR #3290

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/12/2002 : 18:41:19

John,

I picked up the polysulfide based LifeCaulk because I didn't need any adhesive properties, just sealing out moisture. As a matter of fact, today I gathered all my teak up and headed down to the boat to install it. I thought it would be best to dry mount the teak first just to be safe, since this is my first season with the Cat and it had been since last fall that the teak was near the boat. I mounted the teak hatch slide rail first and discovered that there is a stripe of Cetol, about 1/16" to 1/8" wide, on the gelcoat running alongside the entire length of the teak rail. Apparently the DPO put masking tape down before applying the Cetol, but stayed out from the teak about 1/8". I knew this stripe was there, but assumed that it would be underneath the teak rail and out of sight. Well, needless to say, I spent 2 to 3 hours gently removing the stripe with a sharp, burr free wood chisel and extremely fine grit wet sandpaper, cursing the DPO for a fair amount of that time. Maybe tomorrow I'll be able to install the teak.

Don Lucier, Northstar
C25 SR/FK

Edited by - on

Bristle
Admiral

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USA
834 Posts

Response Posted - 04/13/2002 : 11:04:05

Don: Did you try mineral spirits? If that didn't get it all, I'd try Soft Scrub with bleach. I'll get to test that theory within the next few weeks...

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 SR-FK #5032 "Passage" in CT

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/14/2002 : 10:11:48

I will try the mineral spirits when I go down to the boat today. These Cetol stains are a few years old so I don't know if they will come out with the solvent, but I will give it a try. Thanks.

Don Lucier, Northstar
C25 SR/FK

Edited by - on

Bristle
Admiral

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USA
834 Posts

Response Posted - 04/14/2002 : 16:47:35

Don: That's why I'd try the Soft Scrub with Bleach--after the solvent has removed as much of the material as possible.

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 SR-FK #5032 "Passage" in CT

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/14/2002 : 20:49:40

Dave,

I tried the mineral spirits to no avail. I haven't tried the softscrub yet. I'm going back down tomorrow and I will bring the softscrub with me and give it a try.

Don Lucier, Northstar
C25 SR/FK

Edited by - on

jaco
Deckhand

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3 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2002 : 12:14:08

HI ALL,
I've just discovered this forum. As it happens, I'm looking at all the exterior teak from my father-in law's 1985 C-25. I am not a sailor, know next to nothing about boats, but, my fatherinlaw has this boat he can't part with but hasn't used in 4 to 7 years (his health isn't the greatest). He has given my wife and I the boat. I don't think we can afford to keep it (the slip fees are around $300/mo), but we have begun to try and rejuvinate the boat with an eye to selling it and giving him whatever's left over (which is beggning to look like very little; ie new Honda 9.9, haul and paint, valves, pump. hoses, etc. etc.) I just put the first coat of Cetol light and it looks great. But I sort of wanted to use the same stuff for bedding that was there. It sort of looked like plumbers putty, and it came off very easily - no bonding properties at all. Does anyone know what that original stuff was??
Thanks for that and any other comments about a boat I might be falling in love with but is too expensive to keep (fixed keel - no trailer).
-Jaco

Edited by - on

Bristle
Admiral

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USA
834 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2002 : 12:41:17

Hi Jaco... Here's your chance for a free commercial! Tell us more about the location and vintage of your boat. There are people lurking around here (and some posting) who are looking for a fin keeled C-25 but, for example, can only find swingers... You may find a buyer who'd rather do the work for themselves. You can also post it in the Swap Meet forum here.

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 SR-FK #5032 "Passage" in CT

Edited by - on

jaco
Deckhand

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3 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2002 : 13:28:58

HI Dave, thanks for the reply.
Well,
The boat was manufactured in 1984 and is a 1985 model.
Beyond that I'm not sure what else I could say regarding vintage.
It's located in San Diego on Shelter Island.
I'll take a look at the swap meet and see what happens.
-Jaco

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