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Standing Rigging Questions

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JB
Navigator

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USA
114 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/11/2005 : 18:54:34

I have 2 questions on how to rig the standing rigging. I know how the PO rigged it, but he could have been wrong.

I have a roller furler and the standard rig.

There are 2 holes for the upper stays, should I use the inner or outer ones?

For the forestay/furler the fixture has one hole on a tang and three more next to the deck, perpendicular to the tang. Which should I use?

1988 C25 Wing Keel Std Rig Tohatsu 9.9 Tiller Steering and 2003 C250 Wing Keel Std Rig Inboard Diesel Wheel Steering

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John J.
Navigator

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USA
157 Posts

Response Posted - 05/12/2005 : 04:17:07

Mine came with the shouds mounted to the outer holes, and the forestay mounted to the tang. Not sure if I have the other three holes you're referring to. Hope that helps.

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Dave Laux
Captain

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318 Posts

Response Posted - 05/12/2005 : 07:35:51

On the shrouds it doesn't really matter which you use. The head stay goes on the tang the other holes are for a non roller furling jib tack. Dave

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Bill Holcomb
Admiral

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USA
769 Posts

Response Posted - 05/12/2005 : 10:23:49

OK JB here you go......

For a standard rig, use the inner holes on the upper shroud chainplate.

For the forestay, use the single hole on the tang portion of the stem fitting. The three holes on the other part are to secure tack shackles and other gear that you would use if you didn't have the furler.

Bill Holcomb - C25 Snickerdoodle #4839

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JB
Navigator

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USA
114 Posts

Response Posted - 05/12/2005 : 18:10:57

Thanks everyone! I appreciate the help.

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Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 05/14/2005 : 10:09:25

I will have to disagree with Bill's answer on which hole to use for your uppers. The inner hole is for a tall rig, the outer hole is for a standard rig. This has to do with the angles formed at the spreader/wire junction.

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bbriner
Captain

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349 Posts

Response Posted - 05/14/2005 : 11:12:31

Frank - I'm wondering about that... is their a definitive source? Logic would suggest that the outer is for a tall rig and the inner is for a standard rig. I just replaced all my standing rigging and I'm nowhere near my boat right now and I can't remember what I did... but I sure will look at this when I'm there (tomorrow).

Thx
Bill B
Wind Dancer
4036 SR/FK
SF Bay

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5908 Posts

Response Posted - 05/14/2005 : 13:40:21

The C25 parts list doesn't show different lengths of spreaders for the standard and tall rigs. That implies that the uppers for both versions are intended to be attached to the same hole. I wonder if the second hole is just intended to be a convenient place to attach a snatch block or other piece of hardware, or to rig a burgee.

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Dave Laux
Captain

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318 Posts

Response Posted - 05/15/2005 : 07:22:07

What possible difference can an inch in 15 feet make anyway. The chain plate was probably used on a boat that had one pair of lower shrouds. Use which ever hole you like. The inner one would allow slightly flatter jib trim. Dave

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deastburn
Captain

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USA
334 Posts

Response Posted - 05/15/2005 : 23:50:15

Frank:

Do you have an SR or a TR? On all Catalinas I have been on, the tall rig upper shrouds attach to the outer hole, and the standard rig shrouds to the inner hole on the chainplate. Whay would the 25 be any different? Besides that, Bill Holcomb has been a C25 dealer, and a racer and sailor for longer than either you or me. That qualifies his response as the correct one.

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Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 05/16/2005 : 19:32:33

I can't remember where I saw the analysis of loading on the spreaders of tall vs standard rig, and cannot find it, which is what I based my assertion that a tall rig uses the inner holes. Therefore, I will concede that I am wrong on this issue. But I'll still look into it.
Frank

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Dave Laux
Captain

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318 Posts

Response Posted - 05/16/2005 : 19:38:49

I'm telling you as a yacht designer with many yaers experience (currently designing a 27 ft trimaran) it doesn't matter a damn which hole you use. Use the one you like for what ever reason you like it. Dave

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Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 05/17/2005 : 15:21:10

I'm sure you are right Dave. I think sometimes we want to be right on the money correct on issues. I know that I am that way at work (anesthesia)

Since you are a yacht designer, maybe you can answer this one for me. It seems that when I get my wing keel up to speed, and I am in a chop, the wings seem to keep my boat stable and it really can take the wind. Kind of like a spoiler on a Nascar racer. Is there any merit to my theory on this?
Thanks
Frank

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 05/17/2005 : 19:08:12

Frank - that's an interesting question. When we owned our C22 SK our friends had a C22 WK - when we heeled to 20 degrees it was like hitting a brick wall. At 30 degrees they just kept on trucking! Maybe the wing has qualities we haven't appreciated yet!
Derek

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Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 05/17/2005 : 19:26:22

Yeah Derek, when I'm heeled over it seems to "grab"
even more and has lots of stability.

When single handing in 15 to 20 knot winds I have been trying to heel her over to see just how much of an angle I can get. My personal record is 37 degrees, it seems tough to get much more.

In my whitewater kayaking days we used to do "high braces" for practice and looked to see just how much we could go over without tipping over. It's good learning for kayaking, and this drill has given me more confidence when heeling my 25.

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Dave Laux
Captain

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318 Posts

Response Posted - 05/17/2005 : 20:04:40

You are using your wing keel in the way that theoreticaly it should work best. The lifting portion of the wing is mostly lifting down until the boat is at large angles of heel. Then it should begin to pull to windward. Try for 60 degrees and see if its better.
Seriously the main effect of the wing is to act as an end plate for the keel. The area of the wing also acts to damp pitching and bobbing which also helps. Last part is to concentrate the ballast in the lower part of the keel and there by lower the CG.
BTW anybody else notice the revision of the whole theory of lift, the whole thing about being sucked up by low pressure has been replaced with simple deflection reaction. Makes alot more sense. Dave

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 05/18/2005 : 08:32:33

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Laux
 
BTW anybody else notice the revision of the whole theory of lift, the whole thing about being sucked up by low pressure has been replaced with simple deflection reaction. Makes alot more sense. Dave
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
No, please provide some links.

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Dave Laux
Captain

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318 Posts

Response Posted - 05/18/2005 : 20:39:03

No link that I know of but there was an article in Discover a couple of months ago that basicly said that lift is a product of air mass deflected downward (for an airplane) or aft for us and has nothing to do with low pressure or Bernouli's Theorm except that more air is deflected if the upper surface flow remains attached and deflects down with the rest. Makes good sense to me since I have flown model airplanes with essentially flat wings. Also high performance aircraft since WWII have had symetrical foils. In any case sails with essentially zero thickness certaily cannot develop lift by having the wind on one side go futher than the other. Dave

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/18/2005 : 21:28:08

I remember this experiment from junior high that demonstated lift by creating a low/high pressure differential.

You need a few items...a playing card, a straight pin, a spool of thread (large) with a singular hole through it, and a piece of tape.

First, take the straight pin and pierce it through the center of the playing card. Tape it in place.

Next, hold the card with the pin pointing straight up.

Place the center hole of the spool (the spool can only have a center hole, not multiple holes) over the upward pointing straight pin until it is resting on the playing card.

While holding the spool with one hand, gently blow down through the center hole of the spool and let go of the card.

The card should remain with the spool until you run out of breath.

The card remains there because the faster moving air above the card is creating a low pressure on that surface while the higher atmosphereic pressure below the card pushes it upwards.

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/18/2005 : 21:56:03

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Laux
 No link that I know of but there was an article in Discover a couple of months ago that basicly said that lift is a product of air mass deflected downward (for an airplane) or aft for us and has nothing to do with low pressure or Bernouli's Theorm except that more air is deflected if the upper surface flow remains attached and deflects down with the rest. Makes good sense to me since I have flown model airplanes with essentially flat wings. Also high performance aircraft since WWII have had symetrical foils. In any case sails with essentially zero thickness certainly cannot develop lift by having the wind on one side go futher than the other. Dave
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The reason modern military aircraft have essentially flat wings is due to the fact these aircraft rely on speed and horsepower to keep them flying, but your basic glider still uses the principles of creating a high/low pressure differential to keep them aloft.

As for the the zero thickness of the sail not contributing to lift, I believe this has more to do with the angle of attack than the thickness of the sail.

Say you are sailing close to the wind. Air moving on the windward side of the sail has a more straightline path from luff to leech whereas air on the leeward side is forced to take a longer path which develops lift.

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