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Ouch, that's gonna leave a mark

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/23/2005 : 11:57:31

It took me all of 15 minutes to swap out the halyards and put the main halyard on the starboard side of the boat this Saturday. Reattaching the shrouds and stays also was completed in record time. We also added some of the nice white PVC turnbuckle covers and a brand new set of Edson leather spreader boots. It was then that my co-owner Harvey made one fatal flaw –
“This is going much quicker and smoother than normal. We’ll be sailing in an hour…, ” he said.

The area next to the mast hoist had just been vacated and the yard was launching 3 powerboats. Seizing the opportunity, we hurried to our boat, left the dock and proceeded to the hoist area. After docking at the hoist, we rigged the main swung the boom arm around and began the process of hoisting the mast.

That when the wheels fell off the bus. We were about 20 degrees from perpendicular when the tabernacle pulled from the deck. Thankfully we actually used the hoist because it kept the rig from taking anybody out. We lowered the mast, lashed it to the deck and went back to our dock with our tails between our legs.

It was time for a frothy cold beverage to regroup. Harvey and I had determined we had three possible solutions. Both the good news and the bad news was that the tabernacle is held on with lag screws. Good being only the holes were stripped and wet, and not an entire patch of deck. Bad being they didn’t hold like something that was through-bolted.

We figured there were three possible solutions – The first being to glass the holes and then glass the screws into place. Second was to fabricate a metal plate bigger than the tabernacle to span the bulkhead so we could use some backing plates on the interior of the cabin and then weld that to the tabernacle. The third was to rip out the area and re-glass and re-gel coat.

After some inspection by a local glass expert, plus a guy called Petey who has tons of experience (he has forgotten more about boating than I can ever learn) and the two of us we came to the conclusion that the third option was the only way to do it properly.

Home for the Dremel, chisel and hammer along with all of the glass stuff. I should have taken some pictures, but at that point a camera was the last thing on my mind. We started by removing the gel coat from the area and then chiseling away the glass laminate (delaminated) and then the plywood core. After inspection we found that the wood itself was fairly dry below the first few layers…. That was a good thing. We also found that the de-lamination and water damage had not spread very far – probably about an 8 by 6 rectangle.

Below the plywood sat the cap of the compression post and on the other end (forward), an all resin section. This was a fairly slow process chiseling everything out to this point. After a good cleaning and a bath of Interlux 202 we layered up the new section – West System along with a layer of fiberglass Roving. Then a ¾ inch solid piece of oak coated in 4 layers of West system to fit the hole (with about a ¼” clearance all the way around) Next came two layers of Fiberglass mat and finally one of mesh. With a lot of colloidal silica in the mix west systems like it was our job.

I went down to the boat yesterday to find the repair to be hard as a rock. After some brief sanding, acetone cleaning and some masking I applied 3 coats of gel coat with a little cotton added for some thickness. Sprayed it with Aqua net – its not just for hair anymore – to seal it up and let it cure.

I inquired about tapping the holes large and filling them with West System – as I didn’t want this to occur again if I could help it. General consensus was to do this only if I was through bolting – Which we weren’t. As the current lag bolts would not hold properly unless we waxed them and created a thread in the epoxy. All those present felt the screws would bite the wood way better, so we should just caulk liberally.

I’ll be putting the tabernacle back on tonight and hopefully sailing by next weekend. I’ll keep you posted.

D. Wolff
DPO C25 Hull 401
Currently Sailing "Champagne and Ripple" 1982 O'day 30

Chief Measurer 2002-2006
Vice-commodore 2007

Edited by - on

Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Response Posted - 05/23/2005 : 12:43:49

Sorry to hear you had problems, Duane. Sounds like you have it well under control though.

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 05/23/2005 : 17:11:07

good quality repair. Knowing me, I would have drilled it out, slapped down a lot of Marine-Tex, and through-bolted to a massive aluminum backing plate inside the boat.

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pwhallon
Admiral

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USA
694 Posts

Response Posted - 05/23/2005 : 18:17:40

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Knowing me, I would have drilled it out, slapped down a lot of Marine-Tex, and through-bolted to a massive aluminum backing plate inside the boat.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Don't forget to park the boat under a tree in your front yard before starting. That's how we do it in Georgia anyway.

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Dave Laux
Captain

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318 Posts

Response Posted - 05/23/2005 : 19:43:59

I don't understand what happened. If the mast was only twenty degrees from vertical the load on the step should have been near zero and the shrouds should have been near tight to prevent side to side movement. How did you tear out the step at that point.
Oak is a poor choise for wood that will be totally encapsulated since it expands and contracts with moisture variations, Thats why Catalina used plywood. Dave

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2005 : 07:40:18

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Laux
 I don't understand what happened. If the mast was only twenty degrees from vertical the load on the step should have been near zero and the shrouds should have been near tight to prevent side to side movement. How did you tear out the step at that point.
Oak is a poor choise for wood that will be totally encapsulated since it expands and contracts with moisture variations, Thats why Catalina used plywood. Dave
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

We stepped the mast last night- and discovered the true problem...we had an upper and the forestay switched. At about 20 degrees (give or take 15) the upper (playing the role of the forestay) went taught and the mast rose in the tabernacle as we tried to complete the process. After bending a turnbuckle three years ago, I think we were more concerned about the uppers going up straight than double checking that the forestay was going up correctly.

Last night when we stepped it without any stays or attached and realized the error of our ways. It was probably a blessing in disguise though since the holes for the screws were shot. At least we found out at the dock and there wasn't an injury on the water. Incidently, neither one of us wants to take credit for mis-labeling the wires at the end of last season. Boy did we look like the monkeys with the proverbial football switching everything out.

As for the wood - we went with the hardest wood we could find that wasn't ply and put layers of westsystem on to completely seal it. I was specifically told by a reputable fiberglass repair person to use something hard and solid.... Would there have been a better choice or was ply the only way to go?

dw

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britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2005 : 08:07:01

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Would there have been a better choice or was ply the only way to go?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
If the wood is totally enshrouded with glass, then it should be stable (no moisture changes) but if the glass is punctured (screwed) (pun intended) then IMHO there is the possibility of moisture changes.

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Dave Laux
Captain

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318 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2005 : 08:24:54

My guess is that sooner or later your repair will crack when water gets to the wood and swells it. Ply would have been better because its inherently stable and the soft woods that it is made from don't swell as powerfully.
Dave Carnell who is a boat builder with a lot of epoxy experience has done a series of tests on fully encapsulated wood and found that the moisture content still varies considerably with time and exposure.
My own experience has been that its rare to find a piece of wood in a glass boat that isnot at least damp and that those with screws into them from the top are usually wet as your original core was. The wood mostly does not rot because the air is excluded more effectively than the water. The molecules are much bigger. Also the process heat used making plywood sterilizes the wood and kills the rot spores. Dave

Edited by - on

GeorgeB
1st Mate

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90 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2005 : 10:42:22

Duane,

Sorry to hear of your difficulties. Have observed over the years that the glass under the Tabernacle is subject to a lot of pressure when the mast is raised and lowered, especially if some sort of crutch at the stern is not used. Result is a lot of stress cracks and water infiltration, e.g. delamination. IMHO, through bolting to a big backing plate is in order here. then the stresses are distributed to both skins in the laminate, not just the top(deck).

Not a job I'd recommend to as a weedend fix. It involves removing the compression post and modifying the top of it

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jlguthri
1st Mate

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USA
93 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2005 : 20:28:22

I've always been told that you don't use oak in marine enviroments -- that it will end up rotting faster.... hope it work though

Edited by - jlguthri on 05/24/2005 20:29:21

Brent
1st Mate

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USA
37 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2005 : 21:38:40

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I've always been told that you don't use oak in marine enviroments -- that it will end up rotting faster.... hope it work though<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Especially not red oak!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It will turn black and rot under epoxy and spar varnish.

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bobmac
1st Mate

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USA
47 Posts

Response Posted - 05/25/2005 : 16:36:14

White oak is used quite often in boat building. The problem with white oak is it's difficult to tell it apart from its lesser cousin, the red oak. Red Oak isn't suitable for boat building cuz it's weaker and rots easily unless you can find it as pressure treated with preservatives. (I'd like to meet the guy/gal who built a red oak deck ! you got money to burn !)
White oak is durable, stiff, strong, hard, holds fastenings real tight, and is rot resistant. However, because of the galic (not garlic) acid in white oak, it reacts with plastic resin glues when submerged in salt water, and shouldn't be used on white oak if exposed to salt water.

If I recall Duanne, fresh water is your sailing grounds, so no problems there. Even if you did use Red Oak, by virtue of sealing it with West epoxy, and its relative non-exposure to air/water, I'd say you'll be rotten way before it ever will.

Sail on McDuff !

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