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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 250 Specific Forum

Ida kick-up rudder

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willy
Captain

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USA
422 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/31/2005 : 11:00:46

Well this weekend was my first experience with the IDA kick-up and I have to say I liked the performance. It is considerably longer than the stock rudder which should keep me from rounding up as quickly but with this weekends winds that was never approached. The boat seemed to track exceptionally well and steering was fine.
Some problems...1.The standard Catalina tiller bracket requires considerable modifications be done to the top of the rudder in order for the tiller to lift high enough to get into the fuel locker.
2. The downhaul/ uphaul mechanics seem a bit tricky, time must be taken to insure the lines don't lock in their cleats <i>before</i> attempting to raise or lower.
3.The rudder itself seemed reluctant to drop before I loosened the pivot.
All in all not too bad but hardly the "put her on and away you go" type messsage I got when reading the info pre-purchase.
Give me another week or so and I will have completed the mods to the top of the rudder and will have had a bit more experience to report!

Edgy, WB#655
Dewey Beach, DE

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RSHOOTER
Navigator

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USA
101 Posts

Response Posted - 05/31/2005 : 13:39:38

Willy, I have yet to test mine as my Motor is in the shop. I bought both rudder and tiller which does drop and go. The nice thing about the Tiller is that you can specify a longer one which helps in single handing. The down side is it is a lot skinnier and it may not take a Tiller Extension mount. I think the Kick-up is shorter than the second generation rudder at least for my Wing Keel. I plan to lock it down most of the time. Storage is a definite benefit at the end of the season as the rudder breaks down to two different pieces.

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ekremer
Deckhand

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19 Posts

Response Posted - 05/31/2005 : 22:32:36

I bought the kick-up with the tiller and also found it fit perfectly. It is shorter than the 2nd gen kick-up and longer than the 3rd gen fixed rudder for the WB. It seems to have the best performance from a rudder on this boat so far, and I finally feel the boat handles properly. I have used it a few times in light air and in breezy conditions up to about 18 knots. I lost control and rounded up once when on a run with a reefed main, but that has happened on occasion in puffs with the other rudders. Close hauled, the boat almost steers itself with just a slight amount of weather helm. I also found the kick up mechanism to feel very stiff, but after sailing, there is enough lubrication from water flow that it kicks up very easily. Mine came with a shear pin, which is awkward to remove in a hurry, but very effective for keeping the rudder from kicking up while sailing. I am very satisfied.

Ed
Ad Lib, C250 WB 146

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JohnMD
Navigator

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USA
207 Posts

Response Posted - 05/31/2005 : 23:48:15

I noticed that IDA has a performance rudder and a kickup rudder listed. Does anyone know what (if any) difference there is in performance?

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bear
Admiral

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USA
909 Posts

Response Posted - 06/21/2005 : 07:36:51

I would like to know about any furthur experiences with the IDA kick-up rudder on a WB C250, both pro and con since last May's posts.

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RSHOOTER
Navigator

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USA
101 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2005 : 20:20:50

Joel from Ida Sailor Marine sent me a picture of his Kick Up Rudder on a Wheel Steered C250. It is the same high performance rudder as a one piece. I have the kick-up one on my C250 WK. It's very well balanced and overall I am pleased with it. The fit is drop and go if you order the Tiller as well. My only concern is that the Tiller is very skinny. I haven't decided whether it can take drilling for a Tiller Extension. I don't use the Kick-Up device and just leave it down...it is very handy when getting ready to store the boat as you end up with a rudder in two pieces. Here's the Pic:

[img][http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b5d803b3127cce920eb24edaaf00000010108Mbsm7Zy4k]

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willy
Captain

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USA
422 Posts

Response Posted - 06/23/2005 : 07:28:10

The rudder performs very well! It is well balanced and provides excellent windward performance. It drops and raises fairly easily although in my perfect world the line diameter on the rudder halyard,(is that what I should call it?) would be a bit larger so as to be easier on your hand.
The fabrication necessary to make the thing fit with your own tiller was not too difficult but was not a little job either. The hole in the rudder stock for the tiller bracket must be drilled, and holes in the end of the tiller bracket (pretty serious stainless) must be drilled so that a cleat for holding the rudder in the up position can be attached with nuts and bolts. Then the aft top corner of the rudder stock must be cut off in order for the tiller bracket to raise and lower so you can get it out of the cockpit and get into your fuel locker. I have a tiller extender and a tiller tamer on my boat and would not want to do without either of them so I am glad I kept my own handle.
All in all if you have the need for a kick up rudder like skinny water or the desire to visit your local sandbar I would say go for it. If you just want better windward performance I would say you will get it but the cost/benefit equation may not make sense. Being in a very shallow bay I am happy as a clam!

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henfling
1st Mate

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USA
26 Posts

Response Posted - 06/26/2005 : 21:53:31

I sail on the SF Bay and my WK #521 came with the 2nd generation rudder. To cope with the wind and waves, I bought the Ida performance rudder (not kickup), added 150 lb. of gravel to the front, moved the battery under the v-berth, fine-tuned the mast, and installed a Garhauer rigid vang. Today with 27 knot winds we sailed across the slot around Treasure Island and back to Richmond. Top speed was 7.5 knots under reefed sail. Our boat handles the wind fine, the waves do require constant adjustments to the rudder and mainsheet or we experience weather helm. But the main point is that the Ida rudder does help to control the boat. Its not a cure-all but it has a larger surface area and it is better balanced. Ours came with SS pintles and it fits perfectly.

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 06/26/2005 : 22:40:28

Don, great report... seperating the torque issues aside as one of the rudders is balanced and one not... could you rate the control or grip (ability to hold the boat from any rounding up) of each on a 10 scale?

Which rudder is longer?

When visually observing the IDA rudder, has it showed any angular stall? What I mean, does it show any propensity to drag sideways enough to produce any excess water turbulence?

I realize a control comparison may be influenced by some of the other changes.

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henfling
1st Mate

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USA
26 Posts

Response Posted - 06/27/2005 : 00:50:44

Arlyn,
I would rate the 2nd generation rudder a 4.0 and the Ida a 7.5 I know that is pretty subjective...the two rudders are about the same length if I remember correctly. Normally there doesn't seem to be any stall or turbulence issues EXCEPT when waves/swells come into the picture. In strong winds with waves broadside or from the aft quarter, we definitely had stall issues with the rudder and of course turbulence. The easiest solution was to change course. But with our modifications we are venturing into more challenging winds and seas and racing everyone we see, whether they know it or not. Incidentally, the 7.5 knots occurred surfing a swell on a broad reach. Great fun.

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 06/27/2005 : 09:16:12

Don, thanks for the report. My Mainsheet tech section comments this time include some preliminary observations from comments about it so far.

Quartering seas have a significant effect on many sailboats. Some factors in my opinion that increase the effect are
<ul><li>low length to width ratio</li><li>large rudder for size of boat</li><li>lack of a skeg</li><li>wide flattish bottom to increase righting arm</li></ul>
The c250 has these characteristics and a quartering sea can play havoc with her. The yaw however can be avoided.

When a quartering sea rolls under, two things happen. It impacts the rudder surface and the larger the surface the more yaw force. At the same time, the rudder stalls because water flow past the rudder is reversed momentarily, so for a moment there is no helm to avoid the yaw force. To avoid it, vane the helm to the quartering sea at the moment it impacts. If the rudder offers enough feel (a well balanced rudder will be harder to detect this) the stall will be felt coming as torque eases. At that moment, the rudder should be moved the 15-20 degrees to vane with the sea. It won't effect the course of the boat because it is stalled and has no steering effect. With Great Lakes sea period, the tiller movement is continuous, with no hold at the vane position... throw the helm and bring it right back as the stall only last momentarily.

This may sound like a lot of work but its really not and the results are worthwhile especially if your racing as the boat maintains a straight course instead of suffering yaw from every sea. This is a move that auto pilots can't get and hence why a quartering sea can give an auto pilot fits.

If the rudder is well balanced and doesn't offer the feel to time the throw... then learn to get the timing from the boat motion. At the moment the boat feels the stern lifting from the sea... throw the rudder over and bring it back.

If this helming isn't done, the result of the quartering sea will be that the impact on the rudder surface will yaw the boat 10 degrees (more for a rogue wave) possibly giving it some momentum to carry through and yielding the sails square to the wind and setting up a broach.

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henfling
1st Mate

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USA
26 Posts

Response Posted - 06/27/2005 : 16:31:44

Arlyn, Thanks for the analysis. You have put into words what we were trying to do instinctively. Most of the time we could anticipate by the feel of the boat (you are right in that there is little rudder feel, except for a loss of tension or torque) and turn slightly toward the direction the wave was going and this would counteract a tendency to broach. It is a lot of work and concentration and after about 30 minutes I changed course and life became a lot easier. But I appreciate your comments and will pay more attention to the dynamics next time out.
Don Henfling 2001 WK #521
Marina Bay Richmond, CA

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