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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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2005 Nationals

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osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/02/2005 : 09:17:50

Now that we are into June and are only a month away from Nationals is the time to make plans to attend this year's Nationals on Lake Cheney outside Wichita. It's a relatively easy drive from most of the midwest, and promises to be an exciting sailing event. As long as we have fleets we race Catalina 25 std rigs, Catalina 25 tall rigs and Catalina 250's. These classes race for National Championships. This year we have invited Capri 25's to race for a fleet championship.

So come and get to met some of the folks you talk with on the c25/250 forum. Come for a good time with folks that share your interest in sailing.

Don Peet, C25/250 2004-2005 National Association Commodore
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

Edited by - on

Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2005 : 12:31:56

Hey, Fleet 94 will have a boat there. 3 of us Washington residents are flying in and using a local boat that otherwise would not be on the course. Hope to see big time participation.

We had a lot of fun hosting the 2004 Regatta in Portland, except for the lack of wind! We want a little more of that FUN! We are looking forward to it....

Gary B.
Fleet 94 Captain
s/v Encore! #685 SK/SR

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2005 : 13:09:41

We need more TR's!! Come on you guys!
Derek

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2005 : 21:06:19

the name plates are 1"x4"

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2005 : 23:12:13

These are the tentative PHRF numbers we will use.
Non-spinnaker Spinnaker

PHRF Handicap Configuration Handicap Handicap
SK/WK/FK-std 245 236
SK/FK-TR 225 216
WK-TR 252 244
C250 all 255 247

Edited by - on

rclift
Navigator

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USA
152 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2005 : 00:16:12

Who has the wing keel tall rig in the race?

I'm having a hard time thinking that the wk/tr needs that much time to be competitive. On the other hand there is a vast difference between the c250 water ballast and the the wing keel and the tall rig 250 deserves a large penalty in comparison to a standard rig.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2005 : 00:39:30

I have to agree wholeheartedly with Ray regarding the TR WK C25.
The new PHRF Handbook (2005) lists 7 venues racing these boats. The numbers vary from 222 to 231 and the average is 226. This compares to the C25TR FK and SK at 222. It would appear that all the numbers are higher than usual, but the TRWK seems way out of line.
Derek
PHRF Committee of the Alamo (Canyon Lake)

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2005 : 11:23:08

OK, I will put my cards on the table. I have for almost two years said that the National Association Measurer or Vice Commodore, (each have regatta duties spread between them) should provide the numbers used for the National Regatta. My local guy has done our club numbers forever and they reflect the history of those Catalina 25s that race regularly on Wednesday nights. That would be Standard rig fin keel. Using the Catalina 30s, J-24s, and the S-2 7.9 as benchmarks he has developed the numbers above for the Catalina 25 Std rig. We have never had a tall rig race, (hell I'm one of the few at the club that knew they even existed), we have never had a 250 race. (The two 250s we had at the club have both been sold out of the area.)

He was very kind to provide the numbers:
"Following are the much-discussed handicap numbers for the various configurations of the Catalina 25. For a baseline I used the “PHRF_derivitive” handicap value we assign to the Catalina 25 Fin Keel/Swing Keel/Standard Rig for our KBRS races. This handicap has been “tuned” to reflect the (identified) subject boat as sailed in our “average” conditions over the past 20+ years. As you are familiar with our KBRS Fleet races, you know that we also have an “adjustment” handicap value that is added to the basic handicap when a spinnaker is used. "
However it shows that the local numbers can result in disparities due to the local population.

I would be more comfortable with numbers that reflected a regional (at least) number. Derek (et all), I would be quite content using Texas numbers if you have a history of more rig diversity. (Ray, we have no WK TR 25 entered but maybe we should find one!

)

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2005 : 12:25:08

Frank - we have had all configurations of C25's racing (on & off) on Canyon Lake since the early '80's. We did have 2 C250's racing until about a year ago.
One additional thing we do is when a boat is first rated it is given a provisional number. After a year we study its race results, how it was sailed, and adjust its number if necessary.
Derek

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5932 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2005 : 13:52:56

This is always a difficult problem. As I recall, Gary struggled with the same quandry over what numbers to use at Portland. The only thing that matters is how our boats rate against each other, and not against other classes of boats. I think Derek has suggested a solution that would make sense. Why don't we use averages of all the ratings given for each C25/250 configuration in the PHRF Handbook. The ratings developed by the KBRS fleet are limited to the types of boats sailed there, and the skill level of the people who raced them. I believe the averages of the PHRF numbers would result in the most accurate handicap differentials for all the various configurations, because those numbers would result from a larger sampling of boats and sailors. Even then, there might not be enough numbers to accurately handicap the different configurations of C250. In that case a provisional number might have to be given for this year, which can be adjusted in subsequent years.

If we delay working toward a solution, we'll have to face this problem next year and each year afterward. It sounds like Derek already has most of the info needed to work this out. If these numbers work out well this year, we should continue to use the same numbers, or at least to use this same process next year.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2005 : 14:17:53

Per the by-laws I have provided the local numbers, per the input of this forum I am going to work with Derek to adopt new local numbers to be used in the regatta.

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2005 : 17:03:40

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 OK, I will put my cards on the table. I have for almost two years said that the National Association Measurer or Vice Commodore, (each have regatta duties spread between them) should provide the numbers used for the National Regatta. My local guy has done our club numbers forever and they reflect the history of those Catalina 25s that race regularly on Wednesday nights. That would be Standard rig fin keel. Using the Catalina 30s, J-24s, and the S-2 7.9 as benchmarks he has developed the numbers above for the Catalina 25 Std rig.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
In my opinion, the line of demarkation exists between rules that govern the class (National Association) and rules that govern the race (Regatta Host). Please to remember, the National Association simply sanctions the National Regatta. The Regatta Host runs the race as they see fit, but with consideration to the class rules established by the National Association. This issue, once again, is the dilemma created by not being a truly one-design class.

Also in my opinion, if the Race Committee of the Regatta Host determines the PHRF numbers to be used, then those are the PHRF numbers to be used. However, a substantial amount of lobbying is always in order.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2005 : 18:08:24

The reason I posted them early is to allow for that lobbying. I do not want anyone feeling blind-sided.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2984 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2005 : 19:31:14

JB... The bylaws outline the National Regatta rules so it seems to me that if the host committee desires to do something contrary to a specific within the NA bylaws, then it need be done by waiver.

The requirement for a waiver simply imposes that a good argument is needed, which will go a long way to keeping things within the guard rails.

We've had waivers in the past, Salt Lake... skippers didn't have to own a C25-250. There simply were several boat owners that were uncomfortable with skippering but wanted to crew on their own boat and the Nationals was in jeopardy of happening unless a waiver was given. It is important to note that the waiver was requested by host and they informed all contestants that a waiver had been granted by the NA.

Even so, there were slight problems. In that instance, the NA Commodore afterward atempted to deem the regatta unofficial because of the waiver... but received enough flak to back off.

Should the door be wide open to ringer skippers who don't own a C25-250? Probably most would say no... but specific needs often require specific solutions and waivers should be granted... but I think that a host is bound to run the NA Nationals within the NA rules and leadership waivers.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 06/11/2005 : 12:02:36

After due diligence and careful consideration the numbers that will be used at the 2005 Catalina 25-250 Nationals are:

JAM SPIN

TR 222 210
SR 228 216
TRWK 226 214
C250 CB 231 219
C250 WK 225 213

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5932 Posts

Response Posted - 06/11/2005 : 12:50:08

Those numbers look really good, Frank and Derek. A goodly number of C25s of all types have been racing enough years so that we can consider the PHRF numbers for the C25s to be reliable. The only serious question is where the C250 fits into the overall picture. Bryan showed that the C250 wing is not quite as fast as a C25 tall rig with a swing or fin keel, but might be a little faster than the C25 standard rig, and your numbers are right in line with that. I think most of us believe that the C250 CB is not quite as fast as the C250 WK, although there isn't much data available to prove it, and your numbers reflect that, too. Overall, those numbers appear to be about as accurate as we can get, considering the lack of data on the C250s, and I think the owners of each type of boat will have a fair chance of winning their class.

As far as an overall champion is concerned, the numbers seem pretty fair if the winds are of average strength. If they are either unusually light or strong, one class or another might be favored, as we saw at Portland and elsewhere, but that's just an unavoidable risk of sailboat racing.

Good job guys!

Edited by - Steve Milby on 06/11/2005 12:52:54

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 06/11/2005 : 13:17:26

Well, having settled that problem

can we persuade a few more boats to enter? Especially some TR's - we need 2 more to make a fleet. Frank has put a great deal of work into this regatta and deserves our support - so please come!
Derek

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