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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Racing the 250

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/02/2005 : 13:35:30

I note that it has been announced that once again there will be only one 250 class at the Nationals. I've made this point several times but will make it again... and will keep on making it... that the 250 wing and water ballast are likely as different in performance as the C25 tall and standard yet they are afforded different classes (rightly so) so that competition is fair.

The water ballast is considerably heavier than the wing but by design can carry less sail... these dictate a racing disparity. If considering the Nationals with a 250 water ballast... be aware that you will not be racing on a level playing field.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224

N/E Texas and Great Lakes
Arlyn's Sailing Site

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 06/02/2005 : 19:38:25

So far as I know, the performance differences between the C250s can be fairly equalized with handicaps.

The tall and standard rig C25s were divided into two classes after it was determined that they performed very differently depending on the windspeed. The only way they could be equalized would be by assigning them different handicaps, depending on the windspeed on race day. If that was done, the sponsoring club would have to have some reliable way of accurately determining the windspeed on each race day. It's not difficult to imagine the protests that would result.

I think the C250s could make out a case in favor of splitting them into two separate classes at the national regatta if they could demonstrate two things: (1) that there will likely be more than two boats of each class appear, on average, at most national regattas. (2) that, like the C25s, the performance differences between the two classes of C250s cannot be fairly equalized with handicaps. Unless both 1 and 2 can be shown, I doubt that the national association would split them. Racers love competition. If a sufficient number of boats of each class aren't likely to appear, then you're not giving them the competition that they crave. Most people don't want to "win" a national championship just by showing up. If a sufficient number of C250s show up to race, then there's still no reason to split them into separate divisions so long as they can be equalized with handicaps. I think you have to show both justifications.

You know more about C250s than anybody I know, Arlen. If the second matter can be shown, you'd be the best person to make out the case.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2005 : 07:41:45

It is really not my desire to stir this pot again, only to remind that a disparity continues to exist that hasn't been adressed yet. Without a dog in the hunt, this should be the concern of someone who wishes a level playing field.

I'd point out again, that 250s have been in attendance in greater percentages than C25s but I agree fully that three or more boats are needed for a class to have interesting racing. I also agree fully that until more 250s are produced, a handicap as has been talked about seems the solution, yet no handicap has been forthcoming.

There are at least four Nationals in which both boats raced... it seems to me that those numbers should be crunched to produce a handicap and that before the trailer is hitched... the playing field should be defined.

There is little doubt that wind strength would affect a level field number... leaving a handicap not the best option but, I know of two boats canceled after making plans claiming the reason was the unlevel field.

I had given thought to Portland last year after being very graciously offered the skipper position of a local water ballast... I have a history of racing over many seasons and am comfortable racing but couldn't get enthusiastic about doing it on an uneven field and chose not to come and that boat even though local... didn't race.

The water ballast is the easiest Catalina twenty five footer to trailer... demonstrated by the number of miles that it is hauled to cruise... it likely would show in greater numbers on race courses if the fields were level.

I'll go out on a limb here... If handicap numbers are posted that seem reasonable, I'll strongly consider hauling R&R to Cheney... even though she is grossly overweight with cruising gear. This is not a promise to attend, but it is a promise to give Cheney a very hard look. I've had to cancel out of the Lake Superior cruise this summer... and Cheney could be a venue... but I'll not even consider it without a more level field.

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 06/03/2005 07:44:48

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2005 : 10:37:51

Arlyn & Steve, I agree that the 250 WB and WK are disparate boats and should have a handicap differential so that they can race in the same fleet because of insufficient entries to make a fleet for each.
If its any help, here are the numbers from the current (2005) PHRF Handbook (with their racing venue and number of boats):-
250 CB
Gulf PHRF 231 1 boat
New England 225 1 boat
Yralis 216 1 boat (Yacht Racing Assoc. of Long Island Sound)

250 WK
Alamo (us) 228 2 boats (no longer with us)
New England 228 1 boat
West Florida 225 1 boat

Also listed are 5 C 250's with no keel designation.
C250
Galveston Bay 216
Lake Keowee 228
New England 216
N. Calif. 198
Sail-Colorado 257

Using these numbers could Frank (as RC) come up with an equitable differential?
For comparison, the C25 TR lists at 222 and the SR 228 with no difference between SK and FK.

Derek

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2005 : 13:12:55

I think Derek has zeroed in on the crux of the problem. It appears that the C250 appeals more to cruisers than to racers, and there aren't enough of them out there, <u>racing against each other</u>, to be able to develop really accurate numbers. It's easier to establish meaningful ratings when they race against each other, because you can look at each boat and each skipper, and determine how much of the boat's success was attributable to a clean bottom and good tuning, and how much was attributable to the skills of the skipper and crew, and then you can make appropriate adjustments to the handicap numbers and arrive at a fair, average handicap allowance for each type of boat, with average racing prep and average racing skipper and crew skills.

There's no better opportunity to "do the research" necessary to develop reasonable handicap numbers than at the national regatta, where you are more likely to have enough boats present to see the patterns.

Although Frank already has plenty on his plate, perhaps he can be persuaded to designate a local racer who is knowledgeable about racing handicaps to inspect all the yachts, watch all the races, and afterwards, try to establish handicap numbers that can be used for the different C250s in future national regattas. In short, if PHRF can't come up with adequate numbers for our boats, then the national association should develop our own numbers that we think are reasonably fair for use in our own national regatta.

Although Derek doesn't sail C250s, he certainly knows a lot about racing handicaps, and he could provide good input into the discussion, as well as Arlyn and any other interested people who might attend. If a sufficient number of 250s of each type participate, this year's regatta will be a great opportunity to fix the problem.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 06/03/2005 13:29:52

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