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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Replacing keel pin

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JoergK
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USA
140 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/14/2002 : 08:52:29

When pulling the old keel pin for replacement I notice that the hole through the keel is enlarged, maybe an average of 1 to 2 eights of an inch all around, somewhat irregular.
Is this too much to ignore?
If remedial action is required, would a sleeve for the pin do it?
What material would be best for such sleeve?
Finally, someone suggested a "liquid steel" fill and re-drill. Sounds suspicious to me.
Appreciate any help.

JoergK

Edited by - on

Mike Vaccaro
1st Mate

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77 Posts

Response Posted - 04/14/2002 : 21:58:34

We replaced the pin and bushed the hole on our keel last month. You have a couple of options, but the correct answer is to properly bore the hole (only large enough to remove irregularities due to minimal edge distance between the hole and the edge of the keel) and bush with stainless steel. Less desirable (but cheaper and more practical) is to use a portion of stainless tubing of the appropriate thickness to make a bushing. The folks at Catalina were more concerned about the hole wallowing out than any chance of corrosion around the pin area and recommended the bushing technique for repair. A machine shop can assist you in preparing the hole for bushing as well as in turning a piece of stainless for you. Made a world of difference in the "feel" of our swing keel--solid as a rock, even in moderate waves (4-6'). We also added washers to the outside of the keel to keep the keel centered in the trunk. No more "keel clunk." Now for the downside, had to hire the job out as removing, handling, machining and replacing a 1500 lb keel wasn't something that I could single-hand. Cost 8 boat-units for labor (also included winch and cable replacement). On the upside, parts were cheap!

Best of Luck,

Mike Vaccaro on the Swoose
84 TR/SK #4707

Edited by - mike vaccaro on 04/14/2002 21:59:05

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JoergK
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Response Posted - 04/16/2002 : 23:53:30

It occurs to me that it may be easier to have a machine shop make a new brass pin with a slightly larger diameter in the center portion, rather than to lug around the 1500 lbs keel. Would this be workable?
Would work of course only if the enlarged hole is still (somewhat) round.
How could I best smooth out the keel hole "on-site", anyone has any idea?

Joerg

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Mike Vaccaro
1st Mate

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77 Posts

Response Posted - 04/17/2002 : 09:14:31

Joerg,

Would be possible, however a) the pin is bronze, not brass (i.e., different metalurigical properties--although brass may work, you'd have to do some analysis to be sure); and b) this would necessitate a change in the inside diameter of the keel pin castings that lie on either side of the keel (the dreaded domino effect of engineering changes!). There is not sufficient material in the casting to allow an over-bore of more than a few thousands of an inch. Thus, a custom pin would require a custom hanger (either cast or machined). These castings connect the pin with the four mounting bolts that secure the keel to the hull. If you take a look at the Catalina Direct website, you can find a picture of the hardware. Additionally, there are drawings on the technical support section of this website. Last thing to consider is that the bushing should be a nearly permanent fix to the cast iron keel--if you were able to enlarge the pin (not really practical due to changes in dimension required in the support castings), you'd eventually find that the softer cast iron hole would continue to "wallow," and eventually, you'd run out of sufficient edge distance between the hole and the edge of the keel.

Hope this helps!

Mike Vaccaro on the Swoose
84 TR/SK #4707

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OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 04/17/2002 : 11:24:25

One of our neighbors at the marina had a pair of bushings made out of what metal I don't know. He drilled an oversized hole part way into the keel to accept the new bushing. The bushings protrude partially into the keel have a flange for welding to the keel. When these bushings need top be replaced - grind off the flange - pop out the old bushings and . . .

Steve Madsen
#2428
OJ (Ode to Joy)

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JoergK
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140 Posts

Response Posted - 04/17/2002 : 20:14:34

Thanks, these are all good inputs.
Mike, I thought of having only the center portion of the pin larger, and the ends stay the same (so that they fit into the castings that hold the pin). Is this a workable solution (I realize that this won't eliminate play, but maybe it would severly cut down on it)?
Buzz, wait till I'm finished and am still afloat after one season.

Joerg

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John V.
Admiral

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559 Posts

Response Posted - 04/18/2002 : 14:52:59

I concur with those concerned with metalurgy. The bronze pin is designed to carry all the weight of the keel and brass would definately be too weak, steel may be subject to corousion (?sp) I did the keel job last year and used a new pin and bushing from catalina direct. you can have a machine shop re-drill the hole. I would be leery of partial bushings because the weight of the keel will bear on a smaller surface and be more likely to wear the pin. I know that there are several approaches being discussed but I would stick with the real parts and use catalina's procedures for pin replacement. Another point to consider is, though bronze is very strong electrelosis can weaken it by leeching out some of the compound making the part weaker even though it looks fine Bronze that is pinkish when scratched has been weakened. While you have the whole business abart go ahead and replace everything from the rubber tube, turning ball, cable, pin, hangers the works, the cost is minimal compared with losing the whole vessel.

Good luck

John V. Nin Bimash II
77 C25 #153

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Mike Vaccaro
1st Mate

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77 Posts

Response Posted - 04/20/2002 : 08:16:40

Joerg,

Have to concur with John--stick with the approved soloution. If you attempted to use different diameters on your pin, it will be difficult to use any stress-relief in the radius between the different diameters without some rather precision machine work, and if you reduce bearing surface in the mounts, you'll reduce overall strength. If you don't use any stress relief in radiusing the pin, you'll reduce overall strength of the pin (Catch-22). Overall, I've found the swing keel to be a reliable system when properly maintained, but the term "over-engineered" doesn't come to mind when I think about it. In order to maintain the safety margin inherent in the design, I highly recommend you consult with a local boat yard and/or machine shop if you need assistance. Handling a 1500 pound piece of cast iron isn't easy!

Cheers,

Mike Vaccaro on the Swoose
84TR/SK #4707

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Kelly
Deckhand

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USA
8 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2002 : 16:40:02

Hey - just bought a Cat 25 today - it's an '84 SK - surveyor says it looks to be in great shape, but needs to have the cable replaced. Boat is in the yard now having the bottom painted and the cable replaced. How complex is it to have the pin checked??? Sutveyor didn't check because he was not familiar with this particular model and didn't want to get into something horrifically complex without some inside info. Seems like you guys have all been though the process of accessing the pin and beyond. Can you provide some insite?? (I have no intention of doing it myself - but want to know what I am getting into before I tell the folks at the marina to start taking stuff apart!)

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JoergK
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140 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2002 : 23:31:03

Hello Kelly,
it is not complex at all - I am new to all of this and not a mechanic, and did it myself. Use the "threaded rod" method described elsewhere in the archives, to lower the keel "head" in a controlled fashion out of the trunk, just enough to free the castings that hold the pin, at which point the keel should come to rest on some support (pieces of wood etc)which takes the load (ideally, have the keel braced to keep in from leaning to one or the other side). Now you can unsrew the rods, and take off the castings and pin (get new ones for little money from catalina direct).
Since the new castings will need some machining to fit, make careful measurements. Here some tips (learned by doing things wrong):
1. Don't lower keel more than necessary in order to get at the pin.
2. The moment pin becomes visible, check (and measure) if there is any undue space between the keel and the castings (you may want to consider eliminating this space when having the new castings trimmed to size).
3. Once the keel is lowered and rests securely remove the rods, put the old castings back in place, using the old bolts, and measure the distance between the centers of the bolt holes of opposing castings - across the gap, and the distance between the inner sides of the opposing casings (=width of gap). The width of the gap, minus any undue space (see 2.) is the thickness of the keel.
4. With the above measurements you can now calculate, how much material has to be machined off the new castings (any metal shop can do this).
5. Now try to put in place the new castings, without pin. This attempt is needed to find out if the holes in the new castings match the placement of the holes in the bottom of the trunk bed. If yours is like mine, at least one casting does not fit eaxctly - in this case, one or both holes in the castings should be slightly elongated. No problem for a machine shop.
6. You may also have to trim the length of the new pin (as I had to).
This is because the depth of the holes in the castings may be different. To find out if you need to do so, insert the new pin into the new castings, lay the assemply on a flat surface and measure if the distance between the centers of the bolt holes in opposing castings exceeds the distance that you measured before (see 3.). Dont take off too much because you don't want too much slip for the pin.
7. With the new pin and castings ready, reinsert the rods through the new castings, with the pin through the keel, and slowly raise the keel back into the trunk. When done, replace the rods, one after the other, with the (new) keel bolts(don't forget Loctite). When raising the keel, watch that the rods and castings don't "spread" (if they did, the rods may bend and the pin would slip out on one side, and you have a little problem).

PS. check the hole in the keel for undue wear (see discussion about this in other threads).
Patience will help.

Joerg

Edited by - on

Kelly
Deckhand

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USA
8 Posts

Response Posted - 05/01/2002 : 19:05:22

Joerg,

Thanks for the info - very helpful - passed on to marina and they checked in short order and determined pin and castings all look fine - good to go for another year!!! Now I have to take down the mask to replace port outside shroud - has cracked swage fitting. Got any thoughts on taking down the mast?? This I will do myself - need to take down toward bow.

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