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5hp or 9.9hp.... That is the Question

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jaredeking
Deckhand

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USA
16 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/15/2002 : 14:42:01

Greetings,

My Mariner 8hp 2 stroke outboard motor finally kicked the bucket and instead of sinking more money into it, I've decided to start new. I was thinking about upgrading to a Honda 4 stroke for several reasons:

a) Honda seems to be a reliable company w/ a good name for itself in the outboard world.
b) a 4 stroke is more fuel efficient
c) a 4 stroke is quieter
d) a 4 stroke is better for the environement. I wouldn't call my self a tree hugger, but I am conscious and in CA at least, I've heard that they don't allow any 2 strokes on any of their inland lakes and rivers.

So now, the big debate is, which size engine do I get? Well, like I said, I currently have an 8hp, but seldom needed or used all 8 horses. It seems like the biggest downfall w/ the 4 stroke is the weight. The 5hp weighs in at 61lbs and both the 8 and the 9.9 weighs in at 92lbs. I'd rather get the 5hp because of the size and weight, but am afraid it won't have enough mussle to combat the San Francisco Bay currents.

Has anyone ever tried putting a Honda 5hp on the back of a Catalina 25 and if so, what did you think?

Any words of wisdom on Honda vs another manufacturer or 2 Stroke vs 4 stroke would also be appreciated. Thanks,

Jared on LA BELLEMER (a "newbie") on SF Bay

Edited by - jaredeking on 04/16/2002 04:02:47

Edited by - on

Mike Vaccaro
1st Mate

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77 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2002 : 15:53:20

Jared,

Probably best to work it out with folks that have local experience, but we've used a 2000 6hp Johnson motor (with a high-thrust prop) in Florida waters with no problem for the past six months. The motor was purchased new (been sitting around for a bit with the debacle at OMC) and pushes the Cat 25 at hull speed at less than 3/4 throttle. Weight was a critical factor for us as well, although we are still at liberty to use a 2-stroke motor. Another thing to consider is that in the case of the Johnson 2-stroke 6/8 HP motors, the only difference is the RPM (i.e., torque produced) at which they turn, which is a function of prop pitch and diameter. This is often the case of motors of common manufacture. We also use a 20" shaft vs. 25" (easier to keep the motor clear of the water [or remove it entirely] for racing). This results in some occasional cavitation, depending on sea states and crew-weight distribution on board. The bottom line is that we find 6 HP to be sufficient; but more is (probably) better provided that a) you can accept the weight and b) your motor mount can accept the thrust. This will probably be the only vote you get for the low end of the horsepower spectrum, but I think you should get by with the smallest, simplest, lightest piece of equipment adequate for the job.

Best of luck,

Mike Vaccaro on the Swoose
84 C-25 TR/SK #4707

Edited by - on

jm
Captain

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Canada
290 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2002 : 16:36:07

Jared - I think you will find numerous discussions about O/B's in the forum archives. If I recall correctly, an 8HP engine with 25" shaft, and an upgrade in the transom support/lift and/or reinforcing the backing plates of the existing one, stood out in the discussions.
There was also some banter about the wiring for the alternator hook-up to the battery, that would also allow the engine to be removed without dragging the same wiring back through the back half of the boat. The alternator leads on the 2001/2002 Honda's are apparently hard wired to the engine.

Obviously brand preference will come into play no matter who you ask -I purchased an 8hp 4 stroke Honda in 2000, and based on the quality of build, availability of parts through dealerships, specs, service, and engine performance (excellent gas mileage, and very quiet operation!) I believe it is one of the few O/B engines available with an XL shaft (25"), which is very helpful in larger swells, and keeping the prop deep in the water during docking manouevers. (full reverse !)

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2002 : 19:46:19

Jared,

"5hp or 9.9hp?"

I would err on the side of to much horsepower than not enough, because as I always say, "It is better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it!"

Don Lucier, Northstar
C25 SR/FK

Edited by - on

coldducks
Captain

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USA
342 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2002 : 21:40:59

we have a tohatsu 9.9 long shaft and have found it to be sufficient for our needs. i dont think we would want anything smaller. it is also light enough to handle if you need to remove it.

COLDDUCKS
FANTASY #409 C250WK

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ssteakley
Captain

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USA
467 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2002 : 22:51:28

I have a 5hp Honda on my 250wk and only one time was I concerned when I was headed into a 25-30mph headwind. But this is on a lake, the 5hp is great for most conditions for me but I really want a 9.9 for those 1-5% of the times when conditions are a concern........buy the 9.9 and enjoy peace of mind.
Steve Steakley

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Ed Montague
Captain

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USA
499 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2002 : 23:09:50

Just to set the record strait Jared, there are very few California inland lakes and rivers that don't allow 2 strokes. Lake Tahoe is one exception. Granted there is a huge threat that all 2 strokes will be banned but that hasn't happened yet. Definately get a 4 stroke. If any of you are planning a trip to California's inland water ways it would not hurt to call your destination to ask about the use of 2 strokes. Chances are good that it won't be a problem.

Ed Montague on 'Yahoo'
1978 #765 SK, Stnd, Dinette ~_/)~

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2002 : 23:59:11

I recently talked about this issue(banning 2 strokes) with a friend of mine who happens to own a boat dealership and he said that California is not banning 2 cycle outboards statewide, only requiring that they meet emission standards that were proposed in 1998 for model year 2001. He also said that any future 2 cycle restrictions would only apply to the manufacture and sale of new outboards and would not apply retroactively to older, previously sold outboards. Now, this doesn't stop California water boards from banning 2 cycle outboards due to the possible contamination of local drinking water supplies.

I've been thinking, since 4 cycle outboards are a relatively new animal, I wonder what their average life cycle will be? My father used to have a couple of small 2 cycle outboards from the late 50's that wouldn't die. Since they get fresh oil constantly in the fuel to lubricate their internal parts, these motors just go on and on. But these 4 strokes now require that someone perform regular oil changes in order to lubricate valves, pushrods, cams,..etc. Is everybody changing their oil religiously? I know everyone on this forum does, so please, no posting hate mail. I would be a little leery about buying a boat with a 4 cycle motor especially if the boat it was attached to wasn't well maintained. I'm in the midst of fixing a boat that was not abused, but was seriously neglected and if the boat was neglected you can bet the engine was too. Now, a 2 cycle will take a certain amount of neglect, but not a 4 cycle, so be careful out there when looking at used boats and motors.

Don Lucier, Northstar
C25 SR/FK

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jaredeking
Deckhand

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USA
16 Posts

Response Posted - 04/16/2002 : 04:21:08

First of all, I want to thank to all of you who responded to my original message. This forum is exactly why I have always referred to the Catalina 25 as the VW Westfalia Camperbus of the sailing world. We really seem to have a tight community and that is good.

From what I gather, it seems like everyone is best friends with my dad and my grandfather who used to always say "it's better to be safe than sorry." No, but in all seriousness, it seems like people are leaning towards "bigger is better," but I haven't really heard anything negative about the weight issue yet. Is it just in my head or is the 9.9 hp (or the 8hp for that matter) Honda weighing in at 102 not really that much. I just have visions of a bent up motor mount and splintered fiberglass on the transom. At the same time, I'm invisioning me kicking myself in the butt for the next eight....een years for not getting the bigger motor.

The weight and the subsequent lack of thrust with a 4 stroke, makes me just want to go back to a 2 stroke. Look forward to hearing back from all of ya'll.

-Red

Jared on LA BELLAMER in San Francisco Bay

Edited by - jaredeking on 04/16/2002 04:31:00

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 04/16/2002 : 09:19:26

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

The weight and the subsequent lack of thrust with a 4 stroke, makes me just want to go back to a 2 stroke.

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

You need to read up on the high thrust props offered by the Yamaha 4-stroke models.
As for weight - my transom was already bowing with the Mariner 9.9 2-stroke. Because I lowered my motor mount to get the bite I wanted the gelcoat began to crack. I had my transom re-enforced. Unfortunately what I consider to be the perfect motor mount for 4-strokes on the transom of sailboats mfg'd by OMC (gas shock assist) got lost in the OMC/Bombadier (sp?) shuffle. Others have commented on alternative brackets.
My dad: "it's better to be shocked once <img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle> than shocked twice <img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>."

Steve Madsen
#2428
OJ (Ode to Joy)

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Tim Pinkham
Deckhand

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USA
4 Posts

Response Posted - 04/16/2002 : 10:12:49

I have a Yamaha 9.9 four stroke long shaft high thrust electric start outboard. I love it. It is rather heavy (100 lb.) but I only take it off and put it on once a year.
I bought the "four stroke" mounting bracket from CD. It seems a little light to me. After one season all is well. I have not noticed any problems with the transom.
I change the oil, oil filter, fuel filter and spark plugs ever year.
It is quiet, fuel efficient and starts as soon as I touch the starter.
I have a six knot current to deal with on occasion and must make way for ships, tugs and an occasional sub.
I feel safe with this motor.

Tim Pinkham
Dover, NH

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ltenny
1st Mate

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35 Posts

Response Posted - 04/16/2002 : 13:33:54

For reference, I have an 2002 4 stroke 8 hp Yahama on my Catalina 27, and it is great. I got electric tilt, electric start, and a remote control in the cockpit, so it's all push button operation. I can go 6 knots easily, and it's really quiet and odorless.

I ordered mine from Central Florida Yahama (I live in California) which I found over the web; they have by far the lowest prices I could find, and excellent service and tech support to boot.

Good luck,

Lee

Edited by - on

ltenny
1st Mate

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35 Posts

Response Posted - 04/16/2002 : 13:36:16

Oh yeah - it's a high thrust model (bigger prop and lower gear), which I would deem as critical for a sailboat.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
For reference, I have an 2002 4 stroke 8 hp Yahama on my Catalina 27, and it is great. I got electric tilt, electric start, and a remote control in the cockpit, so it's all push button operation. I can go 6 knots easily, and it's really quiet and odorless.

I ordered mine from Central Florida Yahama (I live in California) which I found over the web; they have by far the lowest prices I could find, and excellent service and tech support to boot.

Good luck,

Lee

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

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dave andersen
1st Mate

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85 Posts

Response Posted - 04/16/2002 : 14:07:46

I also have the Yamaha 4 stroke 8hp -- it weighs 81 lbs.
Best news: It has its shifter high up on the tiller -- no leaning
overbroard for awkward shifts. Also it has the niftiest
fresh water flush valve with a common hose fitting right
up front -- thus, a fresh water flush after each use with
no hassle. I'm sold on the Yamaha. IMHO the 5 hp is too
small for the hull.

Edited by - on

Bristle
Admiral

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USA
834 Posts

Response Posted - 04/16/2002 : 15:35:12

One thing I found about the Yamaha High Thrust 8 (electric start) is that it has no pull starter--even if you take the cover off. You must unbolt the flywheel cover to get to something you might be able to wrap a rope around. So, dead battery, dead boat. (Am I wrong, guys?) The Yammi is a nice engine, but that swung me to the Honda. Then again, I've sailed into a marina once when my motor died...

The Honda 8 and 9.9 are exactly the same engine, except that the 8's throttle is limited at a level none of us will ever use, and the 8 saves you a couple of boat units. (Some marketing! <img src=icon_smile_blackeye.gif border=0 align=middle>) Both now come with 4-blade high-thrust props and gearing, and both have 12 amp alternators. (The Yamahas have 6 amps, I believe.) I don't think the Honda 5 offers the 27.7" extra-long shaft of the 8 and 9.9 (which is 2.7" more than the Yamaha) or the high-thrust option. In SF Bay, I'd want the prop as low in the water as possible, so even if 5 hp were enough punch(questionable), the prop is likely to be out of the water too much.

Both the 8 and 9.9 Hondas are 108 lbs with electric start and XL shafts. That and the higher thrust is too much for many mounts (including my present Garelick), but Garelick and Fulton both make cast aluminum units for even bigger, more powerful motors. I'm installing a Fulton within the next week or so. Then I have to figure out what to do with the alternator cable...

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 SR-FK #5032 "Passage" in CT

Edited by - bristle on 04/16/2002 15:41:56

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 04/16/2002 : 15:50:23

I would recommend going with the 8 or 9.9. I know a 5hp wouldn't cut it with the waves here on Lake Erie, or the currents (where applicable). I would talk to some of the local sailors who use outboards on boats our size and see what the consensus is...

For Bristle: Only sailed in Once? We do it at least once a month for practice in case we really need to do it somewhere. (usuallly with the motor idling for emergency) But its a good skill to have in your bag of tricks for that day when you really really have to sail in, plus you'll have some confidence too.

dw

Duane Wolff
"The Flying Wasp"
C-25, #401 std,sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 national Org.
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2dc20b3127cce9cd2f45b211a0000004010" border=0>

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Bristle
Admiral

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USA
834 Posts

Response Posted - 04/16/2002 : 15:59:52

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
The weight and the subsequent lack of thrust with a 4 stroke, makes me just want to go back to a 2 stroke
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Most sources I've talked to equate an 8 hp high-thrust 4-stroke (Honda or Yamaha) with a 15-20 hp 2-stroke for low-speed thrust. Most 2-strokes and standard-geared 4-strokes are designed to push boats to planing speeds, but give up a lot of thrust when the boat is moving slowly (as ours do even at hull speed). We (sometimes) need that thrust to dock or buck a strong headwind pushing 6-8000 lbs. I'll wager you'll be able to stop your boat from 5 knots in less than half the time (with much less than half the noise) with the high-thrust 4-stroke.

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 SR-FK #5032 "Passage" in CT

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 04/16/2002 : 16:03:47

Yes Dave Bristle, you're right about the lack of a built-in pull rope on the Yammer-hammer. But what you don't know Dave is that we Yamaha owners maintain our boats with such perfection that we never have to worry about using a pull rope <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> Heck, sometimes I'll pull the cover off just to get those young girls to come along side to ask if I need help! Sometimes I have to wrap that pull cord around the flywheel real slow before one of them sees me <img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle> If you'd bought a Yamaha you'd know all this cause it's right there in the owner's manual!

Steve Madsen
#2428
OJ (Ode to Joy)

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Bristle
Admiral

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USA
834 Posts

Response Posted - 04/16/2002 : 16:08:33

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I have a six knot current to deal with on occasion and must make way for ships, tugs and an occasional sub.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Tim: Against a six knot current, about all you can do is keep from going backward--no matter how much power you have. At hull speed, you're doing maybe .3 knot over the bottom. Hope that sub isn't chasing ya! <img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>

Duane: I've sailed various engineless boats up to docks. Some day I'll have to try backing into my slip. <img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 SR-FK #5032 "Passage" in CT

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 04/17/2002 : 10:11:50

I tried hard to stay down of the soap box...but can't help myself.

I affirm that it appears that the 9.9 is the accepted standard outboard for 25 footers. But, I find it interesting why.

I need to preface my perspective by saying, my C250 inherited a Honda 8 from my previous boat. Unfortunatly, it was a long shaft rather than the xls and left me cavitating at times in rough conditions. But, even though I had sailed with it a lot on my C250 and in some very tough conditions, there was never a need to run it at full throttle. My 8 had the same prop pitch, blades, and diameter as 9.9-15. So, the only difference in power was RPMs and as I never needed full rpms on the 8, it didn't seem logical that a 9.9-15 would ever be of any value because they just meant more weight with nothing else to offer.

Ok Ok, there were other things that they offered, and this is my point. The 8 wasn't available in electric start. Early on, it wasn't available in xls. So, the 9.9 outsold the 8 for these reasons plus, it seemed that in the 9.9 that you got a bonus because the motor was actually a 15 and in our culture, big is better.

In reality however, once adequate power is provided to reach hull speed... thats it, any more just burns gas and churns water. The need for more power in tides and currents is a myth. The exception might possibly be in bucking headwinds, but even then I have found that headwinds strong enough to slow me any, brought enough chop with them that I had to slow even more to keep from launching off and pounding and getting wet.

What likely has resulted from all this is that Honda answered what seemed to be the standard by producing a specific 9.9 and the 8 became the child in the way the previous 9.9 had been the child of the 15. The cost here is that the 8 which is really a more ideal size for a 25 footer is now carring more weight than it would if it were designed specifically as an 8.

The new design uses a 4 blade prop with larger diameter. On a draft hull, more RPMs on such a prop will see a power curve loss as the blades cavitate in the previous blades wash. Those few hundred more RPMs on the 9.9 are neither needed or effective.

The bottom line to this... the 8 is the better buy. A purely designed high thrust 8 at 25lbs lighter would have been better. In fact, if Honda or Yamaha produced a high thrust six, between 70-80 lbs....with electric start and xls...it just might be the cats meoow.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 04/17/2002 : 13:25:50

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Duane: I've sailed various engineless boats up to docks. Some day I'll have to try backing into my slip. <img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I've backed out under sail, but backing in... That I don't know if I could do in something this heavy...Maybe a pram???

dw

Duane Wolff
"The Flying Wasp"
C-25, #401 std,sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 national Org.
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2dc20b3127cce9cd2f45b211a0000004010" border=0>

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jm
Captain

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Canada
290 Posts

Response Posted - 04/17/2002 : 13:52:41

Pram, did you say pram ? Have you done something to that young bride of yours to be speaking of prams ?

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joshuaheard
Deckhand

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USA
22 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2002 : 17:28:19

I tried a 5 hp 2-stroke and it wouldn't push my Catalina 25 through 3 foot swells coming out of Huntington Harbor. I called Catalina yachts and they recommended a 9.9 which is what I have now and it works great. They recommend long shaft, but it drags when heeled to that side. I would get a short shaft. I don't know if a 4-stroke has more power, but I would get more than 5 hp. The posters who use a 5 hp to their satisfaction all seemed to be in fresh water. The ocean swells are a different story.

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Bristle
Admiral

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USA
834 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2002 : 22:45:20

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
They recommend long shaft, but it drags when heeled to that side. I would get a short shaft.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
You would be making a mistake! The short shaft (and even most long shafts) will pull clean out of the water in any chop above about 2 feet. It'll also likely suck air if you walk up to the foredeck with the motor running.

If you lift your bracket and tilt the engine, the situations where it'll drag are only when your sails are really powered up. It may cost you .03 knots, but I doubt it. If you need the motor in a real chop (such as in an inlet against a current) and the prop is pulling out of the water because of the pitching of the boat, you've got a real problem.

If your mount puts the short-shaft engine low enought to prevent all of this, a following sea may drown it. If you're on a small lake with 1 foot waves, then disregard all of the above. Otherwise, extra-long is the only worthwhile choice for a 25' sailboat with a bracket on the transom. No point in wasting money on less (as my DPO did).

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 SR-FK #5032 "Passage" in CT

Edited by - on

jm
Captain

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Canada
290 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2002 : 11:15:41

You don't think we get any swells as "fresh" water sailors ?
I invite you to sail on the inland seas we call the Great Lakes! When the wind is at 35mph and wave heights are 3-4 meters.
(10-12ft) and the occassional 15' rogue wave will flush your cockpit of what your stomach has recently heaved, and drench your pea-soup complexion. Arrrgghhh, matey.. batten down the hatches, we're in for a wee blow..

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Tray
Navigator

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Namibia
224 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2002 : 20:25:18

I have the Honda 8, 4 stroke, and have only one complaint: its weight causes my boat to list to STBD slightly. Otherwise, it has been great, and always starts on the first pull (unless I forget the choke).

Tray
C-250WB #554
"Weeny Bean"

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