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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 250 Specific Forum

Why buy this boat?!

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John
Deckhand

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USA
5 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/15/2002 : 17:06:26

I am playing the devil's advocate here. I have been excited by the C250 for three years now, but I am routinely troubled by this message board.

A whole string of posts discuss how under ballasted the WK is. Another argues back and forth about the generations of rudders. At the end I determine that none completely solve the multiple problems. Then there is the weather helm issue: controllable by tuning, but always "tender". One poster said that the performance of the boat from the factory "stunk".

Well, I don't mind personalizing or tweaking for perfomance, but If I'm going to spend $27,000 I want about that sails well!

Do you like your boat or are you making due with a dissapointing purchase? Would you do it again? If not what other boat should I consider in that class?

These are very to the point questions and I certainly don't want to upset anyone, but to an outsider looking in I am nervous about a purchase. Having said all of that I am ready to sign the contract at the Oakland boat show on Thursday. So, chop chop with those responses.

With very good natured intentions,
John

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2002 : 17:49:55

All good questions and many of them reference some of my comments. I take no offense but you are likely reacting to your protective side of your back pocket. Have you heard, "set up properly, sailed with reefing discipline, modifications and upgrades made, the C250 handles and sails well". If however, someone weren't committed to a reefing discipline, then they should consider a boat with less percentage of sail.

First, the c250 was a new design in '95 and all new designs need debugging and tweeking. The rudder issue is pretty simple, all the manufactures of water ballast boats, McGregor, Hunter, Santana, and Catalina were caught off guard with the rudder lift requirements of a hull designed for internal ballast.

Remember, all sailboats are compromises. There is no one boat that has all. So, find the boat that fits your priorities. The c250 is designed with a good bit of beam, sails great in light air, has good accomodations for a 25 foot boat and offers several nice amenities such as open transom, motor well, enclosed head, large sleeping berths, etc. The water ballast is very easily trailered and the wing comes fitted quite well for its cost. Their quality and performance surpass the McGregor and Hunter.

I have been pretty honest on this site about the need to be intentional with setup, etc. Perhaps this is because I expect much. The same was true for my Hobie 18 many years ago. It was a proven design, but to eek out maximum performance and handling, there were many little things to adjust.

Finally, its not a mystery that water ballast boats took some heat when first introduced. Some owners gave up...and some of us hung to see them tamed. The proof however is in the resale and one has to hunt and pay a good price for a c250 because the handling problems have been resolved. Those problems didn't go away with a wish however....and thats what the chatter is about.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224

Edited by - on

coldducks
Captain

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USA
342 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2002 : 17:58:53

we bought a c250 wing keel from the rhode island boat show in 1999. though some adjustments are necessary, we had the good fortune to have someone from the dealer sail with us the first few times and tuned the rigging to our liking. although this is our second boat, and we probably dont have the experience that some of the sailors in this forum have, we have loved this boat from the start. buying at the boat show gave us so many extra features that we probably would not have thought of otherwise. teak floor, wheel steering, electric start, dutchman flakaing system (which is wonderful) pedestal mounted engine controls, window shades through out and pouches for storage in the head, the better canvas package and the pop top. the only thing we would have done differently was to get a motor with an EXTRA long shaft. we got the long shaft that the dealer told us to get. it works fine, but in hindesight, we would have gone with the extra long. overall we are extreamly satisfied with the boat. i am sure you will get other responses, but i would do it again tomorrow. fair winds.......

COLDDUCKS
FANTASY #409 C250WK

Edited by - on

Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1772 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2002 : 18:33:37

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
... dutchman flakaing system (which is wonderful).......

COLDDUCKS
FANTASY #409 C250WK
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Pardon my ignorance ... what is that? How does it work?

Thanks!

Buzz Maring, C-25 SK/SR #68, "Freya"

Edited by - on

coldducks
Captain

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USA
342 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2002 : 21:34:49

a dutcham flaking system is a system designed to fold you sails as they come down. it is two lines run through the sails from the boom to the topping lift. when you drop the sail, it folds itself across the boom. you can go to their website ( i believe it is dutchman.com) for more complete information.

COLDDUCKS
FANTASY #409 C250WK

Edited by - on

Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1772 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2002 : 22:52:16

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
a dutcham flaking system is a system designed to fold you sails as they come down.

COLDDUCKS
FANTASY #409 C250WK
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Thanks! That is definitely cool ... I might add it to my wish list (which gets longer every day). BTW, "dutchman.com" takes you to a website that isn't related to the flaking system. If anyone else is interested in reading about it, here is a web site with more info:

http://images.sailnet.com/dutchman/

Buzz Maring, C-25 SK/SR #68, "Freya"

Edited by - on

jkey6
1st Mate

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71 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2002 : 23:34:22

Great questions.

We bought our yr. 2000 C250WK new in early 2000. We previously sailed an 84 C22. Our C250 has teak laminate floor, wheeled helm and pedestal mounted engine controls with extra long shaft 9.8 hp outboard. We have also retrofitted Arlyn's famous (and fantastic) soft link for engine pointing. Here are a few of my thoughts:

Handling: We sailed our C250, the first couple of months, like our old C22. It actually did pretty well. We were happy although I too would call it tender. In balance it flew with small breeze (vs our C22). Then one day we sailed in a club regatta with another couple and our combined 4 boys. Winds were 15 to 20 and since we were 'racing' damned the idea of reefing, right? Well we lost horribly. Felt like we were going so fast but we could not keep up. Another C250 at our club finished first, we were last. After years in my Sunfish and C22, I could not believe how bad we did. He explained it all to me after the race. We had made 3 mistakes: 1) Our wives spent most of the day in the stern seats. They looked nice back there but they also dug in the stern. 2) We should have at least reefed the jib. The C250 sails fastest when flat and 3) We ran our sails way too full. Next club race, the wives sat near the companionway, we wound in the foresail, flattened out the main and came in 3rd in class of 8. The C22 loved the rail in the water. The C250 does not. That said, my wife did not like the C22 on days with more than 12 knots because you could not sit in the cockpit and stay dry. Wind blown waves frequently come over the bow. That doesn't happen in the C250 even at 25 knots. The high freeboard keeps you dry and thats important when the temps get low. Also I mention that during the race our 4 kids (ages 6 to 10) spent most of the race below watching tv and playing playstation. Our kids (and we) love the big cabin and spending time in it).

Accomodations:
My wife and I sleep in the rear berth and our 2 boys in the v berth. Fits us fine. We could add a couple more people but it would be crowded. We slept in our C22 and had to do all sorts of gymnastics to get in and out. The accomadations can't be matched in 25 feet.

As for the cockpit; to get a larger cockpit than the C250, you have to go to a C30. The C250 cockpit is slightly larger than a C270 cockpit. (Also slightly faster in winds of 5 to 10 knots).

Value:
Check to see what else you can buy with the features, size, and quality of the C250 with only 27k. You can't. The C250 is the best new sailboat value out there. When you compare, look at the details. For instance, the Hunter 270 ($38k to 42k)has non tailing winches that retail for $188 each. Compare to Catalina's tailing winches that retail for almost $400 each. Look at the tracks, the sail control. Most boats in this range are minimal. Compare for yourself, none have better sail control hardware than the C250.

Other: If you get a C250 with wheel, opt for the pedestal engine controls and add (about $10) Arlyn's softlink so you engine turns when you turn the wheel. You will get saildrive performance when docking. The set up is great, you even feel like you are docking a 30 footer.

Decide what you really want in a boat and find the boat that provides the most of what you are looking for. The C250 is not a blue water cruiser, its not the boat you would buy if you wanted it purely for racing. But if you are looking for a quality sailboat, built for the family, competitive in local races and best value for the $$ then I think you will find the C250 quite a bargain.

Good luck with your purchase.

JKEY on "All Keyed Up"

Edited by - on

Rob Poirier
Deckhand

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Canada
23 Posts

Response Posted - 04/16/2002 : 08:11:43

Sorry for changing the subject, however I am anxious to learn more about "Arlyn's soft link". I have tried searching the archives with no result. Could someone point me in the right direction. I used Arlyn's mast raising system for the first time this past weekend and it worked great.
Rob Poirier
C-250 WB #44

Edited by - on

coldducks
Captain

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USA
342 Posts

Response Posted - 04/16/2002 : 09:42:42

buzz, thanks for correcting the website for the dutchman. sorry i gave you the wrong one. but i am glad you found it. it is a great feature. we love it.

COLDDUCKS
FANTASY #409 C250WK

Edited by - on

acierno
1st Mate

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USA
62 Posts

Response Posted - 04/16/2002 : 09:49:54

john, I second the comments made above re. probable modifications to any new product. another unmentioned advantage of the c250 is this forum--such an actively interested group of people really helps out with any problems you may encounter, providing a great deal of pooled knowledge. as one who was initially very disappointed with the tender nature of the 250 (and as one who was used to sailing a c25) i can now state that the boat is worth it--you just have to sail the boat you are sailing, not the one you had (or expected). i now double reef earlier (30 knot afternoon gusts are not uncommon here), keep the jib up 80% rather than immediately furling it with the reef, and feel alot more balanced. this combination has allowed me to reach greater speeds and limit heel relative to sailing with a full main and no jib, or other combinations. 300lb sand in the v-berth storage and a little mast tuning have really helped too. the bottom line is that, yes, the factory sells a boat that is a bit tender, but, yes you can fix this stuff relatively easily and cheaply.

ron

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 04/16/2002 : 10:04:47

Rob, I don't think there is a tech tip for the soft link... I didn't because one of the guys on the trailer sailor board provided a good tech tip on it using my pics. I don't have the link to it any more so will get a tech tip prepared for here. I had the pics on Photo Point but they went defunct... Should be able to do this within a day or so...

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224

Edited by - on

John
Deckhand

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USA
5 Posts

Response Posted - 04/16/2002 : 12:54:52

Thank you for the comments, everyone. All were helpfull. in particular, JKey's comments were what I needed to hear. I have been to the Pac sail Expo 5 yrs running and have burnt up the internet with comparisons. The interior and accomodations of the c250 are extraordinary for its size. When I sit in the "V" created by the V-berth divider and the setee, and throw my leg up on the setee, I might as well be on a recliner in my living room. The room in the head is very reasonable and the rear birth on the WK is cavernous.

I am considering the WK. I will keep it in the water at all times because I Will become lazy over time about towing, rigging and unrigging for a short day sail. I will tow about two or three times a year to S.F. Bay or Lake Tahoe for 7 day trips.

I very much appreciate this message board for it's frank discussion and great sollutions.

Arlyn is correct. Who wouldn't be nervous about writing a $27K check?

Thanks to all,
John

Edited by - on

ssteakley
Captain

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USA
467 Posts

Response Posted - 04/16/2002 : 23:33:26

I Suggest a 250wk. Why? If you are still working and live a typical American life, you will have little time for towing and steping the mast etc. Put the boat in a Marina and enjoy sailing. My wife and I bought a 99 250wk #385 "Moon Chaser" at Canyon Lake Marina and we love every second on her. We have placed 1/3, 6/7, 5/5, and won the recent novice regatta with three 1st place finishes, and had a year of great weekends on the boat. I feel like I have a better boat than any of the
70's and 80's model 30 footers on the lake. I upgraded to the 3rd generation rudder and moved the top of the mast forward 4" and that solved the weather helm. The one thing that you must remember is that you will have to go to the 1st reefing point in those 20+ mph winds even when other boats in the marina do not. Keep it at 20 degrees heel or less and you will beat the fleet,
Steve Steakley

Edited by - on

Ben - FL
Admiral

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880 Posts

Response Posted - 04/17/2002 : 22:30:27

I'm going to chime in here on the 250wk. The previous five years I sailed "Desiderata", an '84 C-22. Then I saw a 250 at the boat show and knew it would be my next if not last boat. So I contacted the dealer and let them know I would be intrested in a used vessel. And sure enough, one came in on a trade. It already had stereo with cabin & cockpit Bose Wave speakers, VHF, sounder, autotiller, canvas package, trailer w/surge brakes, etc. And being only three years old was like brand new at half the price. It took me six months to do the deal. I towed it back with a GMC Yukon no sweat. Having been on a C-250 water ballast also, I'm glade to have the extra head room. I've had the boat out in thirty knot winds and was able to sail her with a double reef.

I would like to upgrade my rudder. And am happy that I can ship the rudder unlike some others at my marina. One thing I did do was install a Tiller Tamer. I use it more than the auto tiller.

After putting all the towels, bedspreads, dinner plates, etc., all with nautical themes, on board I couldn't be happier. This boat is small enough to take out and enjoy often, and big enough to stretch out on. Looking forward to many good years with her.

Only other thing I'm thinking about modifying is I want to raise the dinette table a couple of inches.

<img src="http://members.aol.com:/benraye/pictures/blessing5.jpg" border=0>

Safe voyages,
Ben, FL s/v Chick-a-pea C250wk

Edited by - on

Tray
Navigator

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Namibia
224 Posts

Response Posted - 04/21/2002 : 17:17:43

The only thing(s) I wish my WB came with standard are opening ports in the aft berth, and a place to mount the table in the cockpit. Otherwise, I really enjoy all the little "upgrades" I have made/am making to my boat. I used to tinker on old roadsters, so I think I'm well suited to this boat. As for WB/WK comparisons...I move around a lot, so I wanted something that I could take with me easily. Like all things with boating, it was a compromise. However, the possibility of putting her on the trailer and taking her anywhere for a weekend was also very appealing to me.

I just finished ASA keelboat school this weekend on a C-310, and while the roominess is really nice, I couldn't wait to get back and try out all the new things I learned on my little boat.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

I'm sure I'll get around to adding the opening ports this summer.

Tray
C-250WB #554
"Weeny Bean"

Edited by - on

Ray Seitz
Captain

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USA
416 Posts

Response Posted - 04/21/2002 : 19:53:26

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>The only thing(s) I wish my WB came with standard are opening ports in the aft berth, and a place to mount the table in the cockpit. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Tray:
You are right about the opening portlights in the aft berth. I just had some Lewmar Portlights installed and they really add a lot of light to the aft berth not to mention some badly needed fresh air. There are some pictures in the Tech section of the Lewmar portlights installed.

You should be able to place your standard equipment table in the cockpit just aft of the mainsheet. Mine has two mounting brackets that the table fits in and the mainsheet fits inside the cutout that the table has in it.

Ray Seitz C 250WB #628

Edited by - on

Tray
Navigator

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Namibia
224 Posts

Response Posted - 04/21/2002 : 22:05:33

Maybe the mounting brackets were an option I didn't know about, since I don't have anything in my cockpit that the table would mount into. I thought it was something that Catalina only did on the older 250s or WKs.

Tray
C-250WB #554
"Weeny Bean"

Edited by - on

Wave
Deckhand

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USA
3 Posts

Response Posted - 04/24/2002 : 22:37:41

So, it's past the deadline...did you buy the boat?

We have had our 97 250WK (Julietta, #306) for two years. We have exchanged rudders (third generation) and installed a second reef point in the main. We also added three 60-lb. sandbags in the storage area under the v-berth.

All these changes improved sail performance for the reasons others have listed in the forum. The only thing I would do differently is get a standard, rather than tall rig. Due to the flukey nature of the winds where we sail (a mountain lake in Colorado) and the gusts that can come and go quite unexpectedly and quickly, we sail with our first reef point almost always tied in...with a full 110% jib flying and a reefed main, we can sail comfortably up to 5 knots, due to these adjustments, in winds around 15 kph.

I agree with the poster who advised to put the boat in the water and enjoy sailing it instead of trailing, rigging, stepping, etc. ... I don't know if there are many folks out there who routinely trailer a WK...I personally wouldn't want to.

Edited by - on

Knot Clewless
Deckhand

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1 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2002 : 10:27:50

Ok, my two cents worth on the 250's. This is our second boat after a Capri 14.2 dingy. My wife and I have had the boat since '95, and we are still in love with the thing. We sail on Lake Winnebago in Wisconsin, which is 30 X 11 miles and only 20 feet deep, (but as shallow as 4.5 feet hundreds of yards from shore). We primarily use the boat for day sailing, and over night once in a while.

The boat is fairly stock, with only a few limited additions and repairs. We added bullseye cam cleats for the jib sheets, and other small stuff like a depth finder, inverter, sterio, topping lift, a second reef, etc. The first year we had the rudder cable break when the set screws backed out. I replaced it and used locktight and haven't had a problem in 5 years. We had the centerboard cable snap due to constant wave action at our old lake, and I'm careful not to pull the centerboard all the way up at the mooring, so that the cable end is not constantly twisting at the same place on the pully wheel. Other than that, the boat has been flawless for 5 years.

Gripes: I'd have to say headroom in the cabin, but with water ballasting, I don't see how to get around it. The fore hatch is a pain to open unless you lay on your back. Otherwise you need four hands, two to hole the latches, one to support your body weight, and one to life and lock the hatch. The original mast raising system with the jinpole always scares the hell out of me every year, but it's always worked without a problem. The rudder is the original one. I've had to be very careful when moving the boat on the trailer with the rudder in place. A small bump, and it will scrape. I've heard about the new rudder designs, and their problems, so I've stayed with the original rudder, which for our needs, works fine. The boat was easily overpowered by gusty winds in the 15-20 knot range, even with the single reef. After installing a second reef, that took care of the problem. With the second reef and a small hint of jib, the boat can be easily handled well in 25 knot winds.

Good points: For a trailerable boat, it beats the Cat-22 for about the same weight. Granted, it's about 10 grand more than the MacGregor 27(?), but the quality of the MacGregor... well, just go look at one. I do think the Hunter 26 is a serious competitor, but it's 10 grand more than the Catalina, and not legally trailerable. So, beyond a doubt, I think the 250 is the best trailerable boat out there. Every year, we launch and pull when we want to, not when the crane is available. This means every year I can take the boat home and work on it there, and take my time to do things right. We always have slipped the boat, but the trailerability is really nice.

The boat is not particularly fast with the stock sails, but we treat it more like a party barge, grilling steaks and making margaritas. As a matter of fact, the only SLOWER boat in our harbor is a Catalina 270!

The shallow draft is OUTSTANDING for Lake Winnebago, and allows us to sail without worry of hanging up on sandbars or shallows. Like I say, you can easily be 200+ yards out, and be in 4 feet of water.

In short, we haven't got a lot of experience to compare the 250 to anything else. I wouldn't take the boat on any extended forays into Lake Michigan, but I don't think it was designed for that. For what we use it for, the boat has suited our needs.

This year my wife is putting together an all woman sailing team for the Trans-Winnebago race. I don't expect them to win with our old party barge, but it should be a lot of fun!

Would I buy another 250? At this point, I'd really eye the Hunter 26, but, our old 250 has served us well, so yeah, I would buy another one.

Edited by - on

jlpkap
Deckhand

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USA
7 Posts

Response Posted - 04/30/2002 : 23:32:15

I don't think he bought the ship. He hasn't been back.

My wife and I bought #71 WB last year. Love it. Would do it again.

Love the forum.

JLPKAP
C250 WB #71

J. and K. Peterson
1995 250WB #71

Edited by - on

John
Deckhand

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USA
5 Posts

Response Posted - 05/01/2002 : 00:41:55

I BOUGHT THE SHIP!!

I've been so busy arranging the boat loan, insurance and shopping for options and necessities that this is my first chance to check back. In fact I need info on my first modification. I intend to use the "soft-link" (is that correct?) to control my outboard with the rudder. I've checked the tech-tips and did not see it. Is this a product that I buy and install or something I jury rig? If the latter, could someone give me instructions?

Delivery will be about 4-6 weeks and I'm not sleeping as well as I'd like because of that.

Thanks in advance for the help and suggestions.

P.S. She'll be named O'Nine

Edited by - on

coldducks
Captain

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USA
342 Posts

Response Posted - 05/01/2002 : 07:01:00

John, contratulations!!! you will love this boat...the soft link can be found at www.trailersailor.com. click on the left side on "forums", then click on the right side on "articles and reviews", then scroll down to "rudder/motor steering" part 1. you will see arlyn's soft link pictures. good luck and fair winds!!

COLDDUCKS
FANTASY #409 C250WK

Edited by - coldducks on 05/01/2002 07:06:12

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/01/2002 : 10:48:11

John,

Here is the link to the Softlink article that Coldducks was talking about.
http://www.trailersailor.com./forums/articles/index.cgi?read=134

Don Lucier, Northstar
C25 SR/FK

Edited by - on

jkey6
1st Mate

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71 Posts

Response Posted - 05/01/2002 : 20:53:47

Congrats John!

What boat did you buy and what options?

JKEY, C250WK;

" All Keyed Up "

Edited by - on

John
Deckhand

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USA
5 Posts

Response Posted - 05/01/2002 : 23:24:07

It will be a WK with these options:

Wheel steering with brake/binnacle compass/pedestal gaurd
speed/depth
canvas covers for main, winches and binnacle/cockpit cushions
Green interior cushions/Teak and holly cabin sole (with a few brass accents this should be nice!)
bottom paint (Pettit Trinidad)

I'm going to rent the slip in a couple of weeks. (I wonder if they'll let me sleep in a sleeping bag on the dock next to it 'til the boat arrives?)

John

Edited by - on

coldducks
Captain

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USA
342 Posts

Response Posted - 05/02/2002 : 00:27:44

you will love the teak and holly floor. we have had our boat for 3 seasons and it has never scratched or dulled. it is so nice. did you get the wood table or the white? did you get a dutchman flaking system. the pouches in the head for storage. did you get the remote motor controls on the on the column? and the safety package...A WORD TO THE WISE... the fenders you are going to get are TINY....go out and get bigger ones..you will laugh when you get them...hahhaahha..did you get someone from the dealer to take you out on your first few sails to adjust everything to your liking...if not, ask them..i am sure they will be HAPPY to do this for you...we are all waiting to hear how you like your new boat..ps. speaking from someone in a slip....go sleep in your sleeping bag, no one will notice..

COLDDUCKS
FANTASY #409 C250WK

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Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.