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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Advice for steering in waves?

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Jody
1st Mate

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USA
33 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/28/2005 : 15:53:34

Hi Gang,

I'm wondering if you might have some advice for me on steering in waves. I sail western Lake Erie (short steep waves). It seems the C25 is quite a light boat. It also seems (to me at least) to have a pretty wide aft end. For these reasons I seem to be thrown off course by quite a bit for each wave while on a broad reach or a run. This really becomes a significant factor when they're around 3 feet or more.

Is it better to "fight" the waves with the tiller and hold 'er on course? (It seems I may break the tiller with this tactic)

Let the waves push me about and get back on course ASAP? (Seems to stress the boat the least)

Try to surf staying 90 degrees to the waves? (I like this if it doesn't take me too far off the mark)

I'd really appreciate any guidance!

Thanks,

Jody Larrow, Efficacious, '84 SR/FK

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seastream
Navigator

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USA
242 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2005 : 16:54:34

Welcome! I have an '83 C25 with an '87 9.9 Evinrude. I've sailed it on a lake, and recently in a river and the ocean. These boats weighs about 5000 pounds. They're quite sturdy. I'd be a bit embarassed to tell you exactly how, more than once, I found out how sturdy they are

Anyhow, unless your tiller, rudder, pintles or gudgeons (fittings that fix the rudder to the stern) are damaged, I doubt you'll break anything by 'fighting' the waves. If I'm wrong, someone else here will jump in and say so. You've picked a good boat and excellent forum. Good luck with your new boat!

Bob

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Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1181 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2005 : 18:27:27

Jody,
I would agree with what Bob says. If the hardware is in good shape the C25 will handle 3 foot swells no problem. (I assume you mean swells. A wave is a swell that has broken.) I sailed 35 miles this past spring from San Diego to Oceanside in 6-8 foot seas with a 15-20 knot wind.

I learned to turn a bit into the larger swells to lessen the impact of the swell against the rudder. As a rule I try to point about 45 degrees to the swell. Paralleling the swell or hitting them head on seem to be the least favorable positons from a comfort perspective. Its hard to make a "catch all" rule as the swell interval will impact any decision you might make.
Joe

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ilnadi
Captain

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452 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2005 : 18:47:27

I remember something in tech tips or the froums on steering in quartering seas. I'm sure someone will point it out.

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cclark
Navigator

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USA
104 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2005 : 18:55:10

One observation I would add is that if you have a swinger, wave action tends to effect you more than someone with a fin keel or a full keel boat. If your tiller is in good condition, I wouldn't worry about breaking it.
Chris

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ronrryan
Admiral

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USA
561 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2005 : 21:16:09

When reaching and running, sometimes after a while you can anticipate the motion, turning a little bit into the wave ( actually turning away a bit),so the boat begins its swing away just before the wave tries to drive her around. I'm not explaining this well, but it's sort of bringing in the rudder a moment before you would normally counteract the swell action. The effect is sort of a wriggle through the sea that averages out the course steered. Hope this helps, ron srsk Orion sw fl

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2005 : 21:34:27

Jody, I take my boat out in big winds and waves as often as I can find them out of San Diego. Unless the pintles and gudgeons are badly worn, you don't have to worry about breaking the rudder or its mountings.

I've been making a study of how to sail fastest through waves. Upwind, trim sails a little fully and try to avoid having big waves bring you to a bone jarring halt. Steer off downwind a little when hitting a big steep one.

Beam reach, try to "drop in" and ride along the peak of the wave, then drop onto the face and surf it as long as possible.

Quartering/following sea - your boat is going to wallow and yaw madly as the wave passes. I think its fastest and also easiest on the rudder to let it go or just hold it loose and not fight the wave. Just bring it back on course after it passes. If it is really large, try to turn downswell and surf it but that rarely happens unless its 8 feet plus and with plenty of wind and boat speed.

I've only buried the bow under green water a couple of times. Keep weight out of the ends in upwind, downwind conditions. The bow is actually quite bouyant, as is the stern.

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dhunt
1st Mate

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USA
83 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2005 : 23:02:30

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Is it better to "fight" the waves with the tiller and hold 'er on course? (It seems I may break the tiller with this tactic)<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The tiller won't break but fighting the waves is a waste of effort

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Let the waves push me about and get back on course ASAP? (Seems to stress the boat the least)<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

They're going to push you about anyway

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Try to surf staying 90 degrees to the waves? (I like this if it doesn't take me too far off the mark)<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

This is the fun way to do it but there is another alternative . . . in quartering seas, the swell passing under the boat from the stern stalls the rudder and then slaps you around. If you steer up the swell just as it passes under you, the rudder stalls (so you don't really change course) and there's less rudder surfase for the swell to slap, so you don't get knocked about quite so badly.

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2005 : 23:26:00

Jody,

By no means is the 25 a light boat; especially for its size. In fact its one of the heaviest in the 25 foot range. I too sail on Lake Erie in Cleveland. And have had the boat out in everything up to 6 footers. (Anything more than that on Lake Erie is gets a little hairy as the waves come way closer together than you'd find on the Ocean. I'd prefer to choose a different vessel in those circumstances)

Don't let the waves push you around when going up wind, is almost the reverse of The Hunt family's message above. As the wave is beginning to break across the bow (you shouldn't be going head on if your sails are up) push the helm down slightly and feather the front end up into the wave only to fall down a bit with it as it crests. You'll still net out going in the same direction, but the ride will be much smoother - and faster too since your not fighting the waves.

Downwind, if you pump your main in once or twice and fall down a bit as the wave comes from behind you, you'll surf it quite well until it runs out and you catch the next one.

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 06/29/2005 : 01:34:21

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Sloop Smitten
 ...I would agree with what Bob says. If the hardware is in good shape the C25 will handle 3 foot swells no problem. (I assume you mean swells...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

He means waves, not swells. When shallow Lake Erie throws up waves, they are generally steep and of short periodicity. I'm not really sure this lake is capable of developing swells like those seen on an ocean.

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ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 06/29/2005 : 10:06:30

Provided you have enough speed to maintain steerage in the sea conditions, try to anticipate the quartering swell (wave) and steer the stern into it as it begins to pass under you... before the rudder stalls. If you're reacting after the boat is already slewing, you've got a tiller fight which is tiring and slow.

All the above said, I'm in the Pacific Ocean and I've never seen the Great Lakes let alone sailed on them... so this advice may not be worth a hill of beans for that situation.

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Jody
1st Mate

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USA
33 Posts

Response Posted - 06/30/2005 : 08:52:01

OK, thanks for your guidence.

The pintles, gudgeons, tiller, rudder are all in good shape. I just meant there is a huge amount of force needed to keep the boat pointed in the right direction with no perceptable benifit.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">When reaching and running, sometimes after a while you can anticipate the motion, turning a little bit into the wave ( actually turning away a bit), so the boat begins its swing away just before the wave tries to drive her around.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
The aticipation instead of reaction sounds like the best bet ... shooting for an "average heading".
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I think its fastest and also easiest on the rudder to let it go or just hold it loose and not fight the wave. Just bring it back on course after it passes.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
This is what I've been doing ... it just doesn't seem fast.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">in quartering seas, the swell passing under the boat from the stern stalls the rudder and then slaps you around.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Of course, why didn't I think of that? ... the rudder is stalled! I definatly need to keep this in mind. My mindset has been on what's happening to the boat and sails "above the water". Sheeesh!

I definatly do mean waves not swells. I've never sailed in swells, but I'd like to ... more surfing sounds fun.

Thank you all! Now I'm actually looking forward to quartering seas to practice.

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 06/30/2005 : 10:36:30

Good attitude! Get out there and practice! I love it when the winds are up and the seas are big. Boat at 30 to 45 degrees of heel. Dropping in a surfing 8 foot swells. Whitecaps breaking against the hull. Bow under, spray coming back into the cockpit, charging through the sea. Reminds me that this is a SPORT not just a boat ride! (Of course, its better when you are only a couple of miles from the harbor). Your C25 can take this (make sure everything inside is stowed). Mine is 25 years old and has many times. Make sure YOU can. Oh yeah, check rigging often and all lines led aft make this kind of thing MUCH more fun.

Sailing is best when I find myself going just slightly beyond my (previous) limits.

When all the powerboaters are packing up and going home due to wind and you've just arrived and are heading out, wow, what a feeling! Hoist up that 60% jib and double reefed main!

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 07/07/2005 : 11:26:49

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Sloop Smitten
 ...I would agree with what Bob says. If the hardware is in good shape the C25 will handle 3 foot swells no problem. (I assume you mean swells...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

He means waves, not swells. When shallow Lake Erie throws up waves, they are generally steep and of short periodicity. I'm not really sure this lake is capable of developing swells like those seen on an ocean.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Exactly Don - We get Waves, Chop and Storm surge depending on the weather direction, the depth and the associated fetch. No swells like the saltwater...

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thaind
Navigator

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Canada
145 Posts

Response Posted - 07/07/2005 : 21:39:06

I have this situation a lot on the St Lawrence, because the wind and the current usualy run in the same direction. I don't disagree with any of the advise given, but when running, excesive tiller work can quickly lead to a accidental jibe. It is too easy to become more focussed on the waves than the wind. I find it better when cruising to find a downwind bearing around 30-40 degrees off of true that presents the best combination of direction and minimal roll.

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