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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 250 Specific Forum

Jib furler, sheets and shape

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simonhayes
1st Mate

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USA
34 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/11/2005 : 15:49:38

I sail in the heavy winds of San Francisco Bay and, since acquiring 2003 WK “Caspian” a few months ago have been struggling with the 133 jib and furler to get the right shape and sail efficiently and would appreciate some input others.

1. Furler line – the line use for the furler is too thin and the track seem to have too much friction making furling the jib difficult even when things are calm (which they rarely are around here) - have people upgraded the line / track for the job furler successfully ?

2. Jib Sheets – given the placement of the shrouds, the full 133 job needs to run outside the shrouds. However, the jib lead tracks are inside the shrouds and when you furl it into about 70 or 80% or smaller , (which we do quite frequently give the high winds) the jib sheets start to rub against them, especially since you need to move the fairlead block forward to try and get the right tension on the leach. It is a pain to keep rerouting the jib sheets from inside and then outside the shrouds as you adjust the jib size. The only thing I can think of is to run 2 set of sheets but I would think this would create a big mess with the lazy sheets fowling – has anyone done this or have any other creative solutions ? ( I like Arlyn’s idea of jib twings but I am not sure this would solve the problem entirely and, so far , I don’t have winches on the coamings )

3. Sail shape – I am concerned that I cannot get good sail shape on the jib. I cannot seem to get good leach tension even close hauled with the fairlead blocks well forward, the top of the jib always seems to spill the wind. I have tightened the forestay (which was too loose) and the jib tack where it is connect to the furler so now the jib luff is pretty tight and although things are better – still pretty poor shape, especially when partially furled. Anybody any ideas ?

4. New Jib - I am actually considering that the jib might have blown out into pockets in the strong SF winds (where the boat has been since it was purchased), especially given the thin material (I think it is only 5oz Dacron.) If I can’t fix the shape, I will be in the market for a replacement jib made from heavier/stronger material. Does anyone have experience of buying such a thing and if so, sharing experiences of sail makers would be welcome.

Thanks again for everyone’s help,

- Simon

Simon

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 07/11/2005 : 21:16:03

Simon... given normally strong winds... have you considered down sizing to a 110 and if there are any light air days, adding a drifter for those? A 110 is pretty effective down to 8-10 and a drifter will pick up from 8 on down to 2-3 and be more effective for light air than the 135.

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 07/11/2005 21:21:11

simonhayes
1st Mate

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USA
34 Posts

Response Posted - 07/11/2005 : 22:16:21

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Arlyn Stewart
 ..have you considered down sizing to a 110 and if there are any light air days, adding a drifter for those?..
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I actually hadn't thought of that but that is certainly worth considering since I rarely have the full jib out ( unless I am becalmed under the bay bridge in the lee of the city ) Does the 110 have the sheet same routing problem inside/outside the shrouds or is it small enough to be sheeted inside the shrouds ?
Thanks again,
- Simon

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 07/12/2005 : 00:07:01

A 110 would sheet inside the shrouds only...

While were on this subject, some historical information. If I recall correctly, the shrouds on the first few wing keels were chain plated at the hull deck joint as the water ballast has been until the 2005 models.

Early owners who went with the 135 quickly complained that a sheeting problem existed and Catalina moved the shrouds inward to the cabin top on the wing keels. It is still not ideal but works, requiring rerouting the sheets or running double sheets so that the cars can be moved well forward when reducing headsail significantly.

I'm curious, are there any wing keels out there around hull number 230-240 with the chain plates at the hull/deck joint?

Edited by - on

Tom Potter
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1913 Posts

Response Posted - 07/12/2005 : 19:41:46

Simon,
When I was installing my CDI Furler I toyed with the idea of getting a 135 jib but decided against it. Since I have a tall rig I thought the 135 would be a little to much so I got a 110 from Cruising Direct. I had them install a rope pad in the luff so to keep better sail shape when rolled in when needed. Without some type of padding either foam or rope on the luff you will lose your sail shape when rolled in some. My shrouds come down onto the cabin top not to the rail and I run my jib sheets around the outside of the shrouds. Seems to work the best there for me.

Edited by - Tom Potter on 07/12/2005 19:54:36

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 07/12/2005 : 20:14:43

When you talk about sail shape are you talking about it when the jib is reefed down or when the 135 is fully extended. If you are talking about when reefed then try this: get a piece of 2" foam insulation and split it on one side. Then prior to reefing put the foam insulation up as high as possible over the furler then roll it in. This will help the shape of the luff and improve up wind performance.

Edited by - on

simonhayes
1st Mate

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USA
34 Posts

Response Posted - 07/12/2005 : 23:12:10

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by tompotter
.... Without some type of padding either foam or rope on the luff you will lose your sail shape when rolled in some....<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Thanks Tom for that advice - I will certainly look to add that into mine when/if I get a new headsail.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by frog0911
When you talk about sail shape are you talking about it when the jib is reefed down or when the 135 is fully extended. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Thanks Frog0911...it is both actually but worse when furled.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">.. get a piece of 2" foam insulation and split it on one side. Then prior to reefing put the foam insulation up as high as possible over the furler then roll it in... <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I might try that but doesn't the piece fall out when you unfurl it ? I can see it blowing away very easily.....!?

- Simon

Edited by - on

simonhayes
1st Mate

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USA
34 Posts

Response Posted - 07/12/2005 : 23:22:37

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by tompotter
..... Since I have a tall rig ............ My shrouds come down onto the cabin top not to the rail and I run my jib sheets around the outside of the shrouds.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

This got me thinking that there are clearly a number of different rig configuration out there but I am not sure what Catalina intended to be the jib sheet routing. The Tall rig doesn't seem to exist anymore but the shrouds attachment point may vary. In my 2002 WK , the shrouds are connect to the outside of the cabin roof and, frankly, I can't really see where else they could be connected given the width of the cabin top. My jib tracks are very clearly inside the shrouds but the 135 (std on the WK) requires them to be outside...this seems to be a design flaw ..or at least a confusion point.

I have posted a pic of my cabin top - is this what everyone else has or is it different ?

Thanks again..

Simon

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2005 : 06:24:27

Simon, to help sort it out... the 250 was initially designed as a water ballast boat to meet the seeming need of a growing demand of family oriented trailer sailors. There were tons of used 25-26 footers around, so the new market seemed to be easier trailerability.

Unfortunately, not understood was the rudder requirements for the new hull forms needed for water ballast and almost all producers were caught with inadequate sized rudders and the result was that water ballast was given a nasty viewing because of handling problems, eventually fixed by larger rudders with greater control. I myself wrote to Catalina in '96 and raved that I loved so much about the boat but hated the handling.

Initial sales slackened... and it appears that Catalina in an attempt to redeem its mold investment, started producing wing keels around hull #230, this sometime in early '96.

With more righting moment, the wing was felt to be capable of carrying more sail than the water ballast and it was initially offered with a choice of 110-150 headsail and a tall rig option. Very shortly the tall rig and 150 options were dropped with the boat appearing to be generally overpowered by them. At any rate, the initial water ballast design had chain plates at the hull deck joint which worked great because a 110 headsail was thought and rightly so, to be the limit and the inboard tracks and cabin winches worked great and provided a tight slot.

With larger sails overlapping the shrouds, the chain plates had to be moved inboard to the cabin top and of course this was a pragmatic design evolution that likely wouldn't have been initially designed the way it turned out. Very probably the jib tracks would have been outside the shrouds and coaming winches used... but the lack of side decks made such an option impossible, there is no way to lean over the life lines and try to ajust jib cars safely and even if more expensive adustable cars from the cockpit were used, I'm thinking Catalina wanted to keep the tighter jib angle with a narrower slot. The result then is the existing problem of the sheets when furling and running the cars well forward.

If often running partially furled with the cars well forward... double sheets seem to be the most reasonable solution.

Edited by - on

Tom Potter
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1913 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2005 : 10:04:31

Hey Arlyn, Your signature picture is X'ed out.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
X
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

Edited by - Tom Potter on 07/13/2005 10:06:40

simonhayes
1st Mate

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USA
34 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2005 : 11:19:02

Arlyn,

Thank you for taking the time to explain this to me. Now I understand how we got here, even if I am not thrilled with the result. It seems like having the chain plates on the roof, like I have, means you cannot have all points of sail and furling managed from one position, inside or outside with either the 135 or the 110. The 135 need moving inside when sailing close hauled, especially if the headail is furled. The 110 needs moving out when running. Am I right ?

If so, let me change the questions to - has anybody experience running two sets of sheets and what issues / solutions they have found, especally wrt the lazy sheets fowling.

Thanks again,

Simon

Edited by - simonhayes on 07/13/2005 11:52:38

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2005 : 14:42:58

A 110 on the water ballast with the shrouds at the hull/deck joint suffers no fouling issues. I don't know if that is also true for the wing keel with a 110. If the answer is no, then I can't imagine why Catalina would move the shrouds to the cabin top on the water ballast on the 2005 models so I have to believe that the 110 on the wing keel has no fouling issues... someone correct me if I'm wrong.

From comments over the years on this forum from those who have run double sheets to deal with a 135, claims have been proffered that doing so is a reasonable way of dealing with the sheeting issue.

Regarding my signature... the server it is on may have been down... I see it, if it is still missing, I'll move it to another server... thanks Tom.

Edited by - on

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 07/14/2005 : 00:22:49

I forgot to mention make sure you get the exterior foam tube. It is the one with the smooth exterior. I have not had it pop off when I pull out the jib reef yet, but I am sure as it ages that there will come a time when it does. I will just have to go back and get it. I have thought about putting a piece of small line on it and attaching to the tack shackle so it does not go overbaord if that happens.

Edited by - on

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