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Gudgeon Mishap

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Phredde
Navigator

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125 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/26/2005 : 19:17:37

Back again with another cautionary tale:

Sailing in SF bay weekend before last. Nice sailing weather 10-20 knots seas 3-4 ft. After a few hours we were headed around the windward side of Angel island when the lower rudder gudgeon broke loose. Immediate loss of steering about 50 yards off of the rocky coast. I've heard there is a way to steer w/o rudder by trimming the sails, but have no idea how this is done. We were out of control going in circles. I was able to get the motor started and the sails down pretty quickly though, and with a partially attached rudder and the outboard were able to steer the boat around the back side of the island where its much more calm. Tried deploying the anchor but with mixed results, it would seem to hold, then drag. But at least we were stabilizied. End up getting towed into Angel island, then about 6 hours later, towed back to the slip. Once docked I found 3 sheared off bolts inside the hull; man those were small only about 3/16". I had a haul out this spring and had inspected the pintles and gugeons; they looked good from the outside.

So what did I learn:
- things can break even though they look good from the outside, would have been good to replace the pintles and gudgeons with sturdier bolts before they failed.
- keep the VHF charged and nearby, it worked a lot better than my cell phone which was hard to hear over the wind noise.
- keep the anchor line free and untangled, a tangle in the line reduced scope which made us drag anchor.

Now I've got a rudder project ahead of me, as well as repair to the gel coat that was damaged by the tiller during all of the excitement.

Worst part: this was my friend's first time out - he may not be back!
Best part: the nice couple with two extra beers as we waited for our tow.

Appreciate all advice and commiseration.

Phredde

Phredde
Catalina 25
San Francisco

Edited by - on

Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1768 Posts

Response Posted - 07/26/2005 : 19:26:31

Wow Phredde ... 'glad it turned out OK.

Thanks for sharing your experience ... 'makes me want to check my gudgeons!

Edited by - on

Jonathan Cuff
Navigator

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Cayman Island
173 Posts

Response Posted - 07/26/2005 : 20:50:35

Hi Phredde

Glad you got back ok. It sounds like one of those nautical heart stopping moments, particularly happening so close to the rocks.

It's one of the annoying aspects of stainless steel that it can look perfect on the surface but underneath it has basically rotted away. I had a similar problem last year when my lower aft chainplate gave way without warning right over 12 mile banks (12 miles west of Grand Cayman). We tacked right away and reefed as much as we could but it was a long and sometimes scary ride home through squalls.

I changed all the chainplates and rigging to find that two of the other lower chainplates were in the same condition - which made us think a lot more about trusting a boat we really knew little about.

Last weekend we renewed the gudgeons using the excellent advice from this forum. The old bolts were fine but the lower gudgeon had cracks in it.

We're now much more confident with the boat with the entire standing rigging renewed, all the chainplates replaced, and the gudgeons finally done.

Cheers Jonathan

Edited by - on

gnorgan
Admiral

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USA
563 Posts

Response Posted - 07/26/2005 : 22:41:41

I also recently replaced what appeared to be adequate original equipment with the new, reinforced gudgeons/pintals from CatDirect.
This past weekend I "happened" to note that my tiller was moving around too much. Back at the slip I discovered one of the phillips head bolts had sheared off at the imbedded backing plate. I had (erroneously) assumed the original bolts would be "just fine". Duh!!! If I do a search on this topic I will most likely find that others have discovered the same problem. I seem to remember someone replacing the original stainless screws with larger diameter bolts. I will do this because after replacing the smaller screw with a new one I still have a problem. The whole plate seems to be moving and I cannot apply enough leverage with a phillips screwdriver to get this whole gudgeon tight enough so it will not move. I probably will also remove all the silicon sealant I used to bed this gudgeon as I fear the silicon is too pliable...read, need something to seal that hardens significantly. Anyone have a good substance to use in this application?

Edited by - gnorgan on 07/26/2005 22:44:00

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 07/26/2005 : 23:32:16

Gary,
When are you going to notice that I bought 5943?
Anyway, most of us used the larger bolts that CD supplied with the gudgeon kit and added SS backing plates on the inside so we could crank the bolts down.

Edited by - on

gnorgan
Admiral

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USA
563 Posts

Response Posted - 07/26/2005 : 23:56:00

....well, at least I own the newer of the two!!

CD sent new bolts???? I don't remember that being the case. I will have to go look but then, again, that may be a useless endeavor in MY shop (hehe). BTW, MY 89 (#5944) seems to already have a backing plate (lower) that the original screws screw into (threaded). I added, or maybe there already was, nuts on the ends to lock the screws and prevent them from backing out.

Just another project to take care of

instead of sailing.

BTW, the winds off San Diego have been 8 to 12, consistent all day and lighten up a bit after sunset. Sailed solo Sunday and Monday nights well into the night with very good winds.

Edited by - on

gnorgan
Admiral

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USA
563 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2005 : 00:34:18

Thanks, Frank. I believe I failed to order two of the following when I ordered the upgraded gudgeons/pintles:
https://www.catalinadirect.com/store/images/Z2196_S01.jpg

However, I may opt to visit WM and buy hex head bolts instead of phillips so I can use a wrench from the outside instead.

I reread some old posts and noted that the new heavy-duty gudgeons may be using 5/16 inch diameter holes instead of 1/4 inch? Maybe that's why there is lateral movement in lower gudgeon....5/16 hole with a 1/4 inch bolt? Makes sense sitting here 75 miles away from the boat (yes, #5944).

Problem analyzed and a predicted solution now on the "To Do" list.

Edited by - on

mmac
Navigator

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USA
168 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2005 : 01:55:57

Phredde,
I had a similar problem when a rusted pintle sheared off. Fortunately, I was 1 and 1/2 miles off off Mission Bay. I limped in under power at idle speed.
I was always diligent about washing off my rudder after every sail. I learned a hard lesson about inspecting everthing periodically, especially what's going on behind the boat.

Gary,
When you guys helped me replace mine, didn't I mention I was using all new nuts and bolts? All those old bolts still looked pretty good, but I figured discretion is the better part of thriftiness.

Edited by - on

Brian King
1st Mate

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USA
73 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2005 : 08:16:10

I replaced my gudgeons this spring with the CD heavy duty bushed version. I also purchased the hardware kit. The hardware they supplied in the kit was the same diameter as the original stuff (1/4" I think) while the gudgeon holes were quite a bit larger (at least 5/16"). So I saved the hardware that CD sent in the "kit" and bought my own stuff that was the correct size for the holes in the gudgeons. They are hex head so you can get a wrench on them. I don't think they'll be breaking soon. Oh, by the way I'm not too far behind you guys at #5931.

Brian King, '89 WK/SR #5931

Edited by - on

PZell
Admiral

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USA
548 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2005 : 12:22:51

So that was you. Heard your call on 16 but I was already headed home
to Brisbane and passing under Bay Bridge. Glad it turned out ok. I've
got my sculling oar aboard which I figure could be used in a pinch.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2005 : 12:58:57

Phredde,

Glad to hear everything worked out okay getting back to your dock.

Question: Why didn't you just remove the rudder and come home under engine power alone?

Edited by - on

tmhansen
Captain

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USA
397 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2005 : 19:46:29

Phredde, wow what a scary place to lose the rudder! Glad you were able to work your way of of the situation. The only time I have ever been out and gotten overpowered and rounded up was when sailing in the location you are talking about.
We installed the CD gudgeons on our boat and I really like the way the sleeves create a tight fit to the pintles with no looseness at all.

Edited by - on

gnorgan
Admiral

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USA
563 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2005 : 23:36:38

Mike,
Enough already with the lecture

. I'll be buying new bolts next time down. Get your boat ready to cruise up the coast to Oceanside and Dana Point by around the 9th or later.

Todd,
My wife and I will be "cruising" an Airstream 25 footer up past your way early next week heading for Kirk Creek (if we can get in there...it's too popular) and camp for about 7 to 8 days. We will most likely stop in SLO to visit my son either going up or heading home.
My son and daughter will be starting their 3rd and 2nd year at CalPoly soon, respectively. My son didn't come home this summer preferring the lousy

weather of SLO to being in Hemet, the location of his former home. He's taking summer classes so he can graduate sometime in the future. We forced my daughter to come home because (a) she didn't have a job; (b) she wasn't taking classes; (c) cheaper for her to be home than spending our money there for the summer. Answer: (d) all of the above.

Is your boat in the water at the marina or on the trailer? Might like to drop by sometime and sail with you in Morro Bay. Someday we'd like to trailer ours up your way to sail ours there also.
Got a teacher seminar for two days in Palm Springs starting tomorrow (Thursday) so won't be back on the computer until Saturday evening just in case you reply to this sometime. Then we leave Sunday or Monday. Sailing will happen again when we get back.

Happy sailing.

Edited by - on

jwilliams
Captain

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USA
357 Posts

Response Posted - 07/28/2005 : 16:40:39

Hiya Phredde,

Happy you are safe.

Your story is similar to mine, only I was 1/2 mi. N. of the Dumbarton...two bolts fell out and the last was just hanging.

What I did was the complete thru-bolt upgrade, top and bottom gudgeons. Then this year I installed a third pintle/gudgeon like my Buddy Paul has on Sparky. (Hi Paul...winning the races?)

With as much time as we spend between Angel Island and Alcatraz I want no surprises, ever.

EVERYONE: If you have not thru-bolted your gudgeons you are asking for trouble!

Jim Williams
Hey Jude C25fk 2958
In Denmark until Sept

Edited by - on

PZell
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
548 Posts

Response Posted - 07/28/2005 : 18:28:23

hiya jim,
Yeah some 3rds and a 2nd. No crew lately and lose some time there. You know
I hate to lose!! (dern little Sandpiper) That day Phredde blew his rudder was pretty snotty in the slot.

Edited by - on

bbriner
Captain

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349 Posts

Response Posted - 08/03/2005 : 13:56:09

Hi Jim - I was wondering where you've been all summer. You're missing some great sailing with the heat wave(s) we've been having! Paul, let me know if you need crew. I'm available most anytime (work comes 2nd to sailing you know :)).

My gudgeon failure wasn't quite so catastrophic but it was one of my early sails on my new (to me) C25 with my (new to sailing) wife. I noticed that the tiller seemed looser than normal (pintles are worn) and I looked back and saw that one of the gudgeon screws was nearly completely out. I hove-to, trying to be calm and collected, and tightened it up. I made some excuse for cutting our trip short and headed back in.

I ended up cutting an access hole in the transom for the upper gudgeon so I could reseat and put locknuts on the bolts. The lower gudgeon's backing plate is completely glassed in so I left it alone.

Some pics of the process are here:
http://www.pbase.com/bbriner/gudgeon_repair

Edited by - on

PZell
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
548 Posts

Response Posted - 08/03/2005 : 14:27:01

Bill: Any Tuesday evening if you can get to Brisbane Marina close to 5PM.
It's a 6PM start. Just beer can racing but loads of fun. Took a 2nd last night, but I'm hopping singlehanded. Get up to 25-30 knot winds in some spots here and then some big holes after all the excitement creeping across the finish. We're having a round T.I. race last Sat. in August also. Try me at work 650 726 6588 before 2pm most weekdays.

Edited by - on

Phredde
Navigator

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125 Posts

Response Posted - 08/05/2005 : 17:46:47

Thank you everyone for your moral support! It really helps.

As I mentioned, post incident discovery was 3 sheared bolts (if you can call them that) on the inside of the transom. I've since decided on the balanced rudder with all new heavy duty hardware, and the biggest bolts and backing plate I can manage. It will be nice to 1) feel safe, and 2) not have to fight weather helm.

I acutally toyed with the idea of trying to cross the bay with just the engine for steering, but as Sparky says, it was a little rough out that day. Plus that's what I pay Vessel Assist for. They told me "it would just be an hour or two" several times so it didn't seem so bad at the time.

Thanks again everyone.

Edited by - on

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