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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Water Ballast Tank Leak

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Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/22/2007 : 23:22:47

This is a repost from earlier threads involving leakage on the WB version. Looks long but believe me, it's a summary.

DIAGNOSING
If your WB boat is taking on water then your must isolate the causes to draw conclusions.

To test do the following:
1. Remove all cushions and boards from the boat so you can easily peak all the way around for incoming water.
2. With the WB valve closed, put the boat in the water and proceed to inspect every nook and cranny: Bow area (under cushions), check the thru-hulls knotmeter and depthsounder, the 2 seats, under the plastic garbage pail under the sink, put your hand under the head sink (the small door at the bottom), put your head through the bilge (AFT) with a flashlight. After 10-15 minutes if the boat is all dry (like mine) then proceed to checking the WB tank (step 3)
3. Now open the WB tank valve and recheck all around again and you should find your source of leakage.

PROBLEM
Three forum members (including myself) had similar WB leaks at the exact same spot. A few theories where brought on why a WB tank could leak which included:
1. Boat with water left in WB tank and frozen over. Ice expands and would crack a WB tank. Possible but hard to believe that an owner would leave his boat in such a situation.

2. Air hose (in the bow anchor compartment) kept plugged in while boat is on the trailer and WB valve open purging water. Now this one is highly probable and happened to me quite a few times by simply forgetting to remove the plug. Furthermore, when taking the boat out of the water (on the trailer) full of water movement is added to the equation. Everyone with a WB knows how much air is being pushed out the air hose when filling up. The same amount of air volume as negative pressure is being forced to the WB tank when purging the water with the air hose plugged. The result is to have the WB tank buckle inwards in the weaker areas.

3. Trailering the boat.

One such area it seems is aft of the WB tank on the starboard side. Both documented incidents have occurred there. If you have a WB model, you might want to poke your head through the aft bilge opening and have a look for signs of stress.

Here was my problem area:

Notice to the far righ now little fiberglass was used to hold down the tank, a lip of about 1/4". It may seem that surely the tank would be held down in a better fashion, but after a long look it seems simply fiberglassed in this way. Catalina should reinforce this joint.

Here was the other person's problem area:

Here the problem is even worse, where the fiberglass lip is almost non-existent. The WB tank seems to be simply deposited and fiberglassed directly where the tank meets the hull.

Britinusa's problem area:

Paul (Britinusa) reports leakage when filling up mostly and not much leaking while underway. His theory is that once the WB tank is full it pushes outward and seals itself somewhat. Of course his problem should deteriorate with leakage while underway in due time. Notice how very similar the ripping effect is to mine. When taking this picture Paul's boat was only 23 months old.

THE FIX
To fix my situation I carefully removed the ugly fiberglass that was just flaking. This left a 1/4" high by 12" wide area to fix. Cleaned the greater area with acetone then fiberglassed 4" high on the whole width of the WB tank. Waiting for the fiberglass to harden (1 hour) and repeated the process 2 more times for a total of 3 coats.

Note that it is not an easy job since the bilge access is rather small and by entering your shoulder through the opening you can barely touch the far end of the WB tank. Furthermore, you probably guessed that your head is outside of the area so you can't see what you're doing and going on feel alone. The way I proceeded was to cut my three 4" stripes fold them in half so it had the shape I wanted. I then mixed my resin and hardener and with a foam brush (wont last long) applied resin (generously) to the area of concern. I then placed my 4" strip and with a latex glove gently pushing it in the resin. Then poured more resin over top of the strip and with my latex glove would spread it over making sure the fiberglass cloth fully absorbed the resin. Once in a while you peak through the bilge access and then add resin to the spots that you missed with your hand. Note that I used the cheap type of fiberglass cloth and regretted not using the one that looks like it's weaved. The problem with the cheap cloth is that it sticks to your glove and makes quite a mess, hard to work with.

Here is the result after 3 layers of fiberglassing. I believe the fix to be more solid than originally. I went much larger than the problem area to solidify. I'm the type that when I fix something, I never want to fix it again. In my mind a boat should be dry.

I strongly believe Catalina is one of the best production sailboat builders and my C250 is solidly built. Although a leaky boat is a stressful experience, it is nice to know that such repairs are easily done (fiberglass is easy!). Always nice you have a strong plateform to work on, something I couldn't say of some other builders. The whole incident took me about 1 day to fix from Diagnosis to being all done at a cost of $25.

(Edit July 23 after sea "lake" trials for 4 hours)
PROGNOSIS:
All is dry down there! Had a small puddle 1 hour into the sail only to find out that it was old water that purged from the bilge tube that I used a few days before.

Steve Blackburn, Calgary, AB
C250WB - 1999 - Hull 396

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 07/07/2008 00:41:47

kevinmac
Admiral

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USA
732 Posts

Response Posted - 07/23/2007 : 14:38:46

Thanks for taking the time to do that post Steve.

Randy, maybe you might want to use this as a tech tip in the magazine sometime?

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 07/23/2007 : 17:47:24

Steve, thanks for posting that.
Another way of finding the leak (one we are about to use) is by putting food coloring in the WB tank prior to fill while on the trailer.

I have done work in that area of the boat when I installed our A/C. you must be pretty flexible to be able to do such a good job there. I'm impressed.

This weekend was the first with our new WB casing valve mod, worked perfect, the only hint of a leak from the top of the casing was when we were draining the tank upon pulling the boat out. So the valve was open and the seal not under any pressure. While on the water there was absolutely no leak from the top of the casing. But... we still had 2" of water in the bilge on the first night. We pumped it out in Friday night, and only a small amount sat & sun nights. This weekend we're doing almost as you suggest, pulling everything out of the boat and doing a water test, but on the trailer. I'll be paying close attention to the bow sump.

Hopefully our next trip will involve some sailing!

Paul

Edited by - britinusa on 08/08/2007 13:21:41

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 07/23/2007 : 22:56:18

No problem guys, hope this can help another WB fellow in peril someday and ease the stress.

I'm just back from a 4 hour sail and confirm that all is dry now! Was inspecting the bilge area and after the first hour I noticed a 6" X 6" small puddle only to figure out that it was left over water in the bilge pump tube that just emptied.

The trick wasn't flexibility but rather strong determination to get this fixed! I did have a neck, back and arm sore after this though! LOL.

Not sure about my casing valve mod though (I only epoxied a washer + 3 rubbers + another washer). Although I saw no water out of there, I did see some rubber washer shavings where they (of course) rub against the threaded shaft. But again my rubber washers were very tight. Still it's a great improvement over what I had.

Paul, I did think about posting the food coloring idea, but then I thought that if the first dry test (with WB valve closed very tight) doesn't spring a leak then you know its not the WB tank. Second step is to open the valve and if you get water, well it's pretty easy to conclude from there if you see water. Yes you can certainly do a good WB tank test whilst on the trailer by filling the air vent (but don't over fill or it will just try to exit out of your WB casing hole again). Glad to hear that your puck mod worked great, at least that's one less thing off your mind!

I left my air vent plug out all day this time. Again I don't see the use for it. If I would be healed over enough so the WB tank empties through the air vent hose I think I would have greater problems on my hands!

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 07/23/2007 23:12:17

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2007 : 19:28:41

I see a post from Paul dated 07/30/2007 18:57:14 on the main page but see nothing in here. Why am I not seeing it?

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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5404 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2007 : 22:12:19

Steve, if you edit an existing post you made, it bumps the thread to the top of the forum.
I did that earlier when I was showing Kent the pics we had posted about the WB issue.

Paul

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 07/31/2007 : 01:35:18

OK! Thanks.

Edited by - on

Second Wind53
1st Mate

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Canada
45 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2007 : 18:59:14

Not sure if I have a leak at the main intake valve thread asembly or a tank leak but after sailing with heel for 4 hours there was 1&1/2 to 2 gallons and also after motoring back home today with some rocking due to Ferry waves I have a gallon of water in the bilge. Dryed everthing out yesterday and it looked good before leaving this morning.

I haven't looked too carefully at the rear bilge but that is where most of it is.

Just one more little issue to deal with along with the centerboard clunking at anchor and rudder rounding the boat up.

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2007 : 20:53:14

SecondWind, I suggest you follow the Diagnosis steps and stick your head down the bilge access with a flashlight. If you have a digital camera it's also quite easy to take pictures down there to examine the problem area at home.

When suspecting a WB leak make sure you always shut the WB valve properly. Even with a WB leak, if the WB valve is well shut you limit the damage to the quantity of water contained in the WB tank itself (you won't sink). However if the WB tank does empty in the boat then remember that the purpose of the tank itself (ballast) does not function anymore since the water will simply flow towards the lowest spot. Sailing in such conditions is quite hazardous since you have no ballast. The whole idea of the WB tank is that when healing the boat litteraly tries to pull the tank out of the water and the water weight (about 1500 lbs) pushes the boat right down. If the water is free flowing it doesn't do much, you might as well be upside down and the "ballast" will be on the roof. Have a look at my next post where I will attempt to illustrate how WB works.

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 06/01/2008 : 17:33:41

Hmmm, this season I heal much harder and find the same 1-2 gallons after a few hours of sailing just like SecondWind stated 2 posts before this one (08/08/2007 : 18:59:14 ). I wonder if I have another leak on the top of the tank sommewhere or it just coming out of the WB Casing valve. Paul (britinusa) before doing your casing valve mod did you have about the same quantity of water in the bilge?

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 06/01/2008 : 18:11:24

Steve, yes we did.
After fixing that we no longer had 'salty' water in the bilge, but did have fresh water there. I had to remake the hose connections for the tank fill including the 2nd tank that we added. This weekend we arrived back at the dock with a dry bilge!!!

Paul

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 06/01/2008 : 21:06:14

"the hose connections for the tank fill". You mean the air vent?

After fixing my ballast leak problem last year I don't think I have another leak from it since I go from dry to wet only after sailing. What other sources of leakage should I verify? The only possibilities of leakage I see (besides a damaged tank) is the case valve and air vent.

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 06/01/2008 21:09:19

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 06/02/2008 : 09:17:17

To confirm:
After fixing the remaining suspected tank leak area (at the aft end of the port cabin locker) we no longer get salt water in the bilge.

Yes, there is a very minor dampness at the top of the WB valve case (a tissue is enough to soak it up)

We were getting fresh water in the bilge, and that was coming from the fresh water tank fillup piping, I remade the fill connections on both fresh water tanks and no more leaks!!!

And what's this 'heeling' that you mention?

Paul

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 06/02/2008 : 10:45:35

Heel Heel (h[=e]l), v. i. [OE. helden to lean, incline, AS. heldan, hyldan; akin to Icel. halla, Dan. helde, Sw. h["a]lla to tilt, pour, and perh. to E. hill.]

(Naut.) To lean or tip to one side, as a ship; as, the ship heels aport; the boat heeled over when the squall struck it. To strike fear into a spouse, causing finger imprints on winch assemblies and overactive tear ducts.

Edited by - on

willy
Captain

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USA
422 Posts

Response Posted - 06/02/2008 : 13:39:05

I dont no wear you learned that David. Their are sew many mistakes folks make on hear. I myself confuse the Winch / Wench use regularly. You must be an English teacher, wearever you are at!
yukyukyuk

Willy

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