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Finally Launched 2008 C-250: The Good, Bad & Ugly

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MartinJW
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Initially Posted - 06/22/2008 : 12:11:26

Greetings, Everyone!

Nearly a year after we started this process, we actually have our 2008 C-250 (mk-II - big deal) in the water as of Friday, June 20!

It's been a two-day adventure with lots of good news, disappointments, excitement, and missteps; but all's well that ends well. We're not 100% ready to go, but I thought it would make sense to share what we've learned with everyone here.

Our dealer - Mike Tolda of Sailing Ventures (CA/NV) - has been absolutely fantastic with his support and help; that's some of the good news. He's put in two long, hot, full days that have been essentially 100% devoted to towing, rigging, and launching our boat. All the while, he's been passing along pearls sailing wisdom and displaying good humor. We couldn't ask for a better experience. Thanks, Mike!

It appears that Catalina has made some substantial upgrades in the sail, and the new spars appear to be first-rate. The mainsail is really, really nice! The fit & finish, technical documentation, and quality control at both Catalina and U.S. Spars is, however, hit and miss (as we've come to expect from Catalina). (I'll fill in more details and provide pictures soon.)

The absolutely worst-case scenario, wife-scarring (and scaring) event was our experience with our NEW outboard engine. Honda made a substantial blunder with our outboard engine, and this could have been disastrous. After motoring around in very, very tight marinas - filled with weekend yahoos - with several near-misses, I discovered that the F/N/R shift lever was not connected to the linkage inside the housing. There were several occasions that required me to make a 3-point turn and/or shift into/out of N or F/R, and the shifter felt sloppy and the prop didn't always engage on the first shift. This was puzzling to me, but I attributed it to my lack of experience with this new engine. However, after slamming into a neighbor's dock when I couldn't get the engine into neutral and securing the boat, we pulled the cover off the engine and discovered that the shift lever rod was NOT connected to the linkage. Surprise! The rod was there with the appropriate washer and cotter pin, but it was NOT inserted into the linkage. This would work somewhat, but not correctly or consistently. This could have resulted in a great deal of property damage as I wound my way around million dollar yachts on Saturday afternoon; Monday morning might have found my insurance company contacting Honda Marine about a product liability situation. I'm very, very disappointed in Honda's quality control. (And I'm a Honda Guy from WAY back - starting with my 1976 Honda Civic!)

I fill in much greater detail after I catch my breath. I'll also post pictures that will, hopefully, better explain this.

Fair winds, everyone!

(Kali &) Martin

C25/250 Int'l Ass'n Member
2008 C-250 WK #973
"Bluebell"
Lake Tahoe, CA/NV

Edited by - on

britinusa
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Response Posted - 06/22/2008 : 12:35:45

Congrats! Get the gunk over on the first trip and the rest will be plain sailing

Looking forward to your pics.

Pal.

Edited by - on

mhartong
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Response Posted - 06/22/2008 : 12:38:38

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by MartinJW The fit & finish, technical documentation, and quality control at both Catalina and U.S. Spars is, however, hit and miss. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I certainly can agree about the technical documentation. The material provided by Catalina for Persephone was EXTREMELY outdated. Fortunately our dealer (Chesapeake Yacht Sales) sat down and went through the Catalina provided documentation and "pen and inked" corrections and updates then discussed them as part of the commissioning process.<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> However, after slamming into a neighbor's dock when I couldn't get the engine into neutral and securing the boat, we pulled the cover off the engine and discovered that the shift lever rod was NOT connected to the linkage. Surprise! The rod was there with the appropriate washer and cotter pin, but it was NOT inserted into the linkage. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Wow! Did your dealer check out the Honda as part of commissioning?

Edited by - mhartong on 06/22/2008 13:20:08

piseas
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Response Posted - 06/22/2008 : 13:51:38

Congrats on new boat. Hope only scuffs to boat and nothing that buffing wont take out.
Steve A

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 06/22/2008 : 14:53:36

Honda dealers are required by Honda to tank-test each engine before delivery--too bad they didn't catch it. I'm having a hard time understanding how it worked at all! (...but I'm not looking for further description.)

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Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 06/22/2008 : 16:46:55

Martin, congratulations! The first outing is always an adventure. You made it through without getting hurt so call it good.

I got your e-mail. Here is the photo of 275lbs (5X55) of crushed rock in the bow. It helps a great deal and the boat handles the better for it. I got a big roll from Home Depot of wrapping plastic (from their storage supplies area) and wrapped each bag real tight. This sticky wrap (like industrial Saran wrap) helps keep the bags in place and they have never budged an inch even in tough conditions.

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 06/22/2008 : 21:26:55

Randy,
How did you come up with your number for pounds of ballast? I thought I had 150# in my bow, but it turns out that it's probably more like 75. There are three bags of what I assume is sand that the PO had in there. I pulled everything out of the V-berth storage yesterday & heaved them up out as well. Then I realized that they were pretty easy to get out of the storage area and it dawned on me that they were half what I'd been told by the PO. I haven't weighed them, but I'll bet they're 25lb bags.

I bought 300# of lead a few weeks back with the intention of putting 200# in the bow, now I'm wondering if I bought enough. I need to counter-balance the new engine, plus it's weight further back due to the mounting bracket. I was planning on using the other 100# as dampener for my lathe.

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Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 06/23/2008 : 00:16:17

I stared with 3 or 4 bags but the boat still did not lie on her lines like I wanted so I added more. I have a fairly heavy Honda 9.9, the wheel assembly and a second battery aft. I like the way the boat sits and sails now.

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MartinJW
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Response Posted - 06/23/2008 : 00:22:15

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by delliottg
 
I bought 300# of lead a few weeks back with the intention of putting 200# in the bow, now I'm wondering if I bought enough. I need to counter-balance the new engine, plus it's weight further back due to the mounting bracket. I was planning on using the other 100# as dampener for my lathe.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Where did you get the lead, David? Do you know how much it was per pound?

Thanks,
Martin

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MartinJW
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Response Posted - 06/23/2008 : 00:23:15

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by piseas
 Congrats on new boat. Hope only scuffs to boat and nothing that buffing wont take out.
Steve A
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thanks, Steve.

Martin

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MartinJW
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Response Posted - 06/23/2008 : 00:28:15

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nautiduck
 Martin, congratulations! The first outing is always an adventure. You made it through without getting hurt so call it good.

I got your e-mail. Here is the photo of 275lbs (5X55) of crushed rock in the bow. It helps a great deal and the boat handles the better for it. I got a big roll from Home Depot of wrapping plastic (from their storage supplies area) and wrapped each bag real tight. This sticky wrap (like industrial Saran wrap) helps keep the bags in place and they have never budged an inch even in tough conditions.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thanks, Randy.

This seems so counterintuitive; I can't imagine ADDING weight to a sailboat to make it handle better. However, I won't argue with empirical (albeit somewhat anecdotal) evidence.

I, too, have the HEAVY Honda 9.9hp outboard on back, the aft battery, and the wheel steering. It does make sense that the center of gravity would be much further aft on this boat relative to a lighter outboard and tiller steering.

I like the idea of using lead shot, but I'll go with crushed rock, if it's much cheaper.

As always, thanks so much for all your help.

Martin

P.S. Do you ever get down to Lake Tahoe?

Edited by - on

MartinJW
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Response Posted - 06/23/2008 : 00:43:57

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by delliottg
 Randy,
How did you come up with your number for pounds of ballast? I thought I had 150# in my bow, but it turns out that it's probably more like 75. There are three bags of what I assume is sand that the PO had in there. I pulled everything out of the V-berth storage yesterday & heaved them up out as well. Then I realized that they were pretty easy to get out of the storage area and it dawned on me that they were half what I'd been told by the PO. I haven't weighed them, but I'll bet they're 25lb bags.

I bought 300# of lead a few weeks back with the intention of putting 200# in the bow, now I'm wondering if I bought enough. I need to counter-balance the new engine, plus it's weight further back due to the mounting bracket. I was planning on using the other 100# as dampener for my lathe.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

What about dropping, say, another 50-100 lbs on top of the keel bolts (under the inspection panel) and about 100-150 in the bow compartment?

Wondering,
Martin

Edited by - on

OLarryR
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Response Posted - 06/23/2008 : 05:33:57

Martin,

I am very surprised about your experience with Honda. I am also one that believes in Honda engines, etc and presently our family has 3 Hondas and the 4th is the outboard. (Okay.. for those that are going to point out that the Honda cars are a different division...I know that..) Anyway....I am not sure just what Honda does as part of assy vs the dealer but would think that especially Honda Outboards which are required to be prepped by the dealer before being sold, that the dealer would have caught the linkage issue. Still, it seems like a quality control issue from Honda Mfg.

I am not sure what I would be doing if it was me but it would either to be alerting/squaring this away with dealer and/or also writing a letter to Honda Customer Service along with the serial number, etc info and see what they have to say about this. I recall doing something similar over 20 years ago regarding a Toro Riding mower where the bushing on the front axle supposedly disappeared and then the wheel caused the shaft/axle to degrade. I brought the axle into the dealer and they replaced it a week later charging me for the new axle (back then...$35). They said it was lack of maintenance during the last half of the season in the year I bought the mower (end of July 1985). I wrote to Toro and they sent me a letter and to the dealer indicating there was no way it was caused by me or lack of maintenance - It was caused by improper assembly by the dealer that did not install the bushing. The regional rep contacted me and discussed the issue and said that even thoguh Toro sided with me, he still was defending the dealer but said the dealer would make some restitution if go back to him. I only wanted the satisfaction of ratting on the dealer's poor workmanship and was not interested in discussing the issue further with the dealer that gave me no initial satisfaction...never wnet back to him. By the way....mower maintenance was never an issue, performed that every year and mower lasted over 20 yrs until I sold it for $300 to a co-worker and bought a John Deere. What this has to do with Honda outboards, I have no idea....just rambling on.....Hope your outboard is now squared away and you can enjoy your wonderful new boat !

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delliottg
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Response Posted - 06/23/2008 : 14:42:58

Martin,
I responded to your email, but I'll respond here as well.

I found the lead on Craigslist, a guy was selling melted down wheel weights in "ingots" for $0.65/lb which is a good price. You'll pay at least $1/lb on Ebay plus shipping (which is surprisingly cheap in a USPS flat rate box).

I would have liked to get lead shot, but they're selling that for $2/lb, and the cheapest recovered lead shot with dirt & gravel from a shooting range that I could find was $1.27/lb in minimum 500lb barrels.

As it turns out, the guy I bought the 300lbs from cheated me by 16 pounds, but I just figured his scale was off by 3-4% or so & didn't bother trying to chase him down for it. And that presumes that my scale wasn't also off. Didn't seem worth it for the $10 or so that made up the difference.

My plan is to varnish the lead ingots so they won't stain my sailbags and then tape them down with 3M double sided VHB (very high bond) tape. I'm going to mount them as far forward as I can get them to counteract my new, heavier engine, the extension mount, and my butt.

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SCnewbie
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Response Posted - 06/23/2008 : 15:18:16

The local true value had 50lb bags of playground sand for $4 each. What is the benefit of lead or rock over sand? I work for a steel company. i wonder how much scale I would have to put aboard. Right now I have 2 50 lb sand bags. I bought two more for the next trip out to the boat. Those things must weigh about 50lbs each. JEEZ!!!!

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Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 06/23/2008 : 15:23:34

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The local true value had 50lb bags of playground sand for $4 each.... Those things must weigh about 50lbs each.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Ya think?

I went with rock so as to make sure there is no leakage and sand getting all over. If you wrap the bags well then there is no issue. I went with cheap and available which for me was rock. Anything is fine as long as it is contained.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 06/23/2008 15:25:05

SCnewbie
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Response Posted - 06/23/2008 : 15:33:14

Maybe I should have added in some sarcasm tags...

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Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 06/23/2008 : 15:37:47

Sorry, couldn't help it. No offense meant.

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SCnewbie
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Response Posted - 06/23/2008 : 16:09:48

none taken. I typed it to be funny but it occurs to me that voice inflection and sarcasm doesn't transfer to the internet very well.

It is something my wife might say and mean.(Please don't let her read these boards....)

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delliottg
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Response Posted - 06/24/2008 : 10:24:03

The benefit of lead is a 40lb brick is about 4x4x3 as compared to the size of a comparable weight in sand or rock.

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SCnewbie
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Response Posted - 06/24/2008 : 12:31:25

That makes sense. The 50lb bag was probably close to 1'X2' and was probably 8" thick. We don't have anything but sand and the table under our V-berth. If we were going to do anything for more than a day or two, I think I can really see the value of the greater density lead.

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MartinJW
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Response Posted - 06/24/2008 : 16:03:41

Here's what the improperly-assembled outboard engine shift linkage looked like. Right behind the gold-ish colored connecting rod is a black lever. The rod is supposed to be inserted through a hole in the lever and secured with the cotter pin. Amazingly, the cotter pin IS installed although the rod is not inserted into the lever. I wonder what the assembly line worker and/or the QC inspector was thinking when this was moving through the factory.

Here's another view of the same screw-up:

Looks like a simple thing to fix, right? I thought so. Although it took me about an hour, I WAS able to correctly insert the connecting rod into the lever and re-secure the cotter pin. In order to reconnect the shift lever, I had to move the engine lever to the FORWARD position. As I was pulling on the connecting rod - with my BARE hands - the lever inside the engine BROKE OFF. Mind you, I could not exert anywhere NEAR the force that can be applied using the shift lever; having this fail in my hands was dumbfounding. The lever is made of plastic, by the way.

So, with assistance from a friend, I hauled the 130 pound outboard engine off the transom, over the coaming, and up the dock to the car. After the outboard is repaired, I get to repeat the whole process in reverse.

The dealer has told me that this will be "seven to ten days!" to repair this. (He was not very happy about me bad-mouthing Honda in his store which features mostly Honda products.) There may be a delay to get parts, unless I want to pay $25 to "overnight" any critical parts. I was thinking that, since this is such a gross error on Honda's part that they might want to do something drastic to make me happy. Nothing so far.

In the meantime, I'm paying $300/month for the dock at which my boat sits dead in the water.

THANKS, Honda! I hope you enjoy the profit you earned on the $3k outboard engine I purchased, because it will likely be the last Honda product I ever buy.

Fuming on the dock,
Martin

Edited by - MartinJW on 06/24/2008 16:11:21

britinusa
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Response Posted - 06/25/2008 : 07:38:37

Randy, if you sail your boat around here in south florida and get boarded by the Coasties, you might find yourself in a bit of a pickle for a while as they determine that those wrapped bags are really rock and not 'rock'!

Even so, it'll cure our bow up stance, so I'll follow suite.

Paul

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 06/25/2008 : 08:42:04

Martin: Take it up the line...

Honda Marine Group
4900 Marconi Dr.
Alpharetta, GA 30005-2519

Customer Relations
Tel: 770-497-6400
Fax: 678-339-2519

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John Russell
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Response Posted - 06/25/2008 : 10:22:00

Martin,
I hope you have better fortune than I. I was told "next week" for 2 months. Finally, 2 months after I submitted the work order I was finally told my motor was repaired. The only problem is, it isn't! It still runs rough and the electric start still doesan't work. At least I can pull start it and I have towing insurance.

Dave's right (again). Escalate this to Honda. This is a more than a warranty issue. This is a defective product delivery. Too bad the dealer wasn't more helpful.

Edit to add: I had to find the part on the internet for them to order!

Edited by - John Russell on 06/25/2008 10:23:04

MartinJW
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Response Posted - 06/25/2008 : 10:41:50

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 Martin: Take it up the line...

Honda Marine Group
4900 Marconi Dr.
Alpharetta, GA 30005-2519
Customer Relations
Tel: 770-497-6400
Fax: 678-339-2519
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

This is a great idea, Dave, and I did call Honda Marine. Unfortunately, the person I spoke with will only tell me to take it to the dealer.

Honda Marine also told me that they don't have any e-mail address to which I could send the pictures. (I was hoping to use e-mail to expedite this process.)

I guess I could try sending a fax.

Thanks,
Martin

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