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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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unstepping mast- what did i do wrong?

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cks
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126 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/21/2009 : 17:52:39

well today was an interesting day. i decided to give my A-frame a try. my boat in on the hard in winter storage.

A frame is constructed from 1" metal conduit per instruction from other threads.

after connecting my furler to the A-frame, i released the forward lower shrouds and loosened the upper and back shrouds. i also loosened the bolt holding the mast to the mast plate.

after the mast started to come down, it seemed to get stuck. i didn't see any tanled lines or shrouds so i thought that the upper shrouds were preventing the mast from descending. so i released the shrouds. the mast then swung starboard ( there was about a 12-14 knot winds). the mast plate bent and started to lift off the deck. luckily, a good samaritan happened to wonder by and helped me guide the mast down.

why did the mast swing so far starboard? is it 1) releasing the upper shrouds 2) loosening the bolt at the bottom of the mast 3) too high winds with a rolled up furler in place or 4) combination of the above.

As it is now, i in for a new mast plate and probably some deck work as i probably need to find a way to make sure that the new bolts are secure.

Edited by - on

John Russell
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Response Posted - 02/21/2009 : 18:40:40

The purpose of the A-frame is to keep the mast in midline. Since it went to starboard, I assume some kind of failure of the frame. Did the conduit bend/break or did it slide?

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Ed Cassidy
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Response Posted - 02/21/2009 : 18:46:52

From experience, there is no need to release anything but the forward lower stays and the forestay. The upper shrouds can be left in place along with the rear lower stays. I would speculate that there was a problem with whatever was attached to the a-frame/furler to lower the mast. It got hung up and releasing the shrouds let the wind blow the mast sideways. My wife and I have raised and lowered our mast probably 20 times in the past year, with her on the ground and me on the cabin top. We don't use an a-frame or a gin pole, just the mainsheet attached to the forestay and a mast crutch to catch the mast on the way down and to get it started on the way up. My job is to guide the mast into the crutch on the way down and to assist in raising it the first few feet up. After that, all I need to do is make sure the mast doesn't get pushed sideways in the wind and that the shrouds don't get hung on something. The geometry of the mainsheet attached to the forestay make it unlikely that the mast will sway too far sideways and once it nears being upright, the stays keep it from going sideways. I know there are a number of methods available, but from experience, the KISS principal is the best way to go (for us).

Edited by - on

cks
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Response Posted - 02/21/2009 : 19:03:09

The purpose of the A-frame is to keep the mast in midline. Since it went to starboard, I assume some kind of failure of the frame. Did the conduit bend/break or did it slide?

no, in fact, the a-frame i thought was pretty stable. the conduit did not bend or break.

From experience, there is no need to release anything but the forward lower stays and the forestay.

that's what i thought- it was just that when the mast stopped dropping, there was so much tension on the upper stay that i thougtht that the only way to get it to keep coming down was to release them. in fact, when i released them, the mast did start dropping again.

would the mast have come down straighter if i would not have touched the bolt at the bottom of the mast?

Edited by - on

Old Disco Queen
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Response Posted - 02/21/2009 : 19:52:25

What an unfortunate event! I step my mast, and I never loosen the bolt at the mast foot. Instead, i just release the forestay, and then the two front lower stays. Then guide her down, facing aft. I bet it was the wind. Don't know why sometimes the simple things on a boat become...well...you know...hang in there! My plan is to purchase a "Mast Up" for Old Disco from Catalina Direct to assist with mast stepping this summer. They also sell some dandy Quick Release mechanisms for those three stays that make it easier.

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JohnP
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Response Posted - 02/21/2009 : 19:52:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">[i]Would the mast have come down straighter if i would not have touched the bolt at the bottom of the mast?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">You didn't say whether the mast moved downwind or not. If it did, then it's likely that it was just the wind. If the bolt at the mast plate is kept very tight, then the mast might not rotate too easily. My bolt rides in a vertical slot. I loosened the bolt before dropping my msst.

As I recall, quite a few comments in previous threads suggest dropping the mast on calm days.

Edited by - JohnP on 02/21/2009 20:01:59

sweetcraft
Admiral

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Response Posted - 02/21/2009 : 20:06:28

Yes, you have to loosen the bolt as the mast starts down it gains height as it rocks to the back edge of the mast base. The mast step is slotted for the bolt for that reason. Even with an A frame that helps keep the mast in the center you must guide the mast in the center of the boat. Wind pressure is about 40 lbs per square foot with a 20 mph wind so you do have side pressure against the mast and furler with a 12 mph wind. There is also side pressure if the boat is not exactly level, side to side. Don't ask me to calculate but there is pressure that you have to control.

I loosen my upper shrouds and unfasten the forward lower shrouds. Some do not loosen the uppers but there is a lot of pressure and at a poor angle on the turn buckles to start to lower the mast. I have a tall rig which I need a gin pole or an A frame especially at the angle at the end of the lowering or the start of raising. I am able to lower and raise the mast in the water by my self and it isn't so far to fall but parts get dropped in the water.

I use a bridle and a gin pole and this last season used a bridle on the mast for the first time and it worked. My boat this season will be 30 and I'm a little older too. I have seen dips in stern pulpits and outboards with out a top due to mast drops so I hope to not do the same. Have good help during the learning curve so you get more sailing.

Edited by - on

GaryB
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Response Posted - 02/21/2009 : 20:27:15

The uppers were too tight! When I dropped my mast last summer I released the front lowers but didn't touch the uppers. After my mast moved a little it quit going down just as yours did. I slackened the line to the forestay a little more and then shoved the mast back until it went over the "hump". I had to push pretty hard to get it over the hump. After that it continued on down with no other problems. Going back up I didn't loosen the uppers any further than they were going down. When I got to the "hump" I was strong enough to push it back over the "hump" so I had to loosen them a little more. Then it went right on up.

I did lower and raise in the water solo with about the same wind as you did. The uppers did help hold the mast near the centerline as it was going up or down to about 45 degrees.

Edited by - GaryB on 02/21/2009 20:29:28

cks
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Response Posted - 02/21/2009 : 20:31:15

"You didn't say whether the mast moved downwind or not. "

yes it did. i also assumed that the boat was level-maybe it wasn't.

for those who only loosen the upper stays, how loose do you make it?

Edited by - on

JohnP
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Response Posted - 02/21/2009 : 20:51:21

When I dropped the mast using my A-frame I loosened the upper stays 6 turns.

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Ed Cassidy
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Response Posted - 02/21/2009 : 21:31:35

The upper stays are attached to the deck, about 12 inches below the base of the mast. The moment the mast heads backwards, it indeed starts to rise because the base of the mast is flat, but at the same moment, the distance from the top of the mast to the chainplate starts to decrease. I can't picture how, on a C-25 the upper stays would still be tight with the mast on the way down. I believe you have an 83 SR? If the top of the mast had traveled any more than half it's width (what, 3") the stays should have started to develop slack. How far had your mast moved.

Edited by - Ed Cassidy on 02/21/2009 21:32:29

cks
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Response Posted - 02/22/2009 : 07:56:14

i'd say the mast moved at least a few feet- probably at least 10-20 degrees from upright. geometrically, if the mast descended in a perfectly straight line (in a circle), the upper stays should remain as taught as when the mast was upright- thus i assume the reason that one should loosen the stays- however, if the mast doesn't come down in a perfect circle there is bound to be tension. FWIW, i loosened my stays about six turns also before i began to lower the mast.

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mlg3733
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Response Posted - 02/22/2009 : 10:25:55

What was the A fame attached to on the deck? How long are the poles?
I attach the jib halyard to my gin pole, and have a hard time picturing the A frame being connected to the forestay/furler, doesn't this make it less stable at the beginning of the manoeuver, as in being loose due to the length of the forestay? Not that it may have made a difference, I am just curious for future reference.
One inch conduit (As in electrical?) does not seem to be very sturdy, I know you said it did not bend, still...
I always loosen my upper shrouds almost completely and tighten them back a 1/2 inch or so.

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Ed Cassidy
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Response Posted - 02/22/2009 : 11:23:26

I don't want to seem argumentative, but because the uppers are attached to the deck, 12 inches below the base of the mast, they will loosen as soon as the mast starts it's travel backwards. If they were attached at the same level as the base of the mast, they would serve the same purpose as 'baby stays' on the C250.

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cks
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Response Posted - 02/22/2009 : 13:15:23

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by mlg3733
 What was the A fame attached to on the deck? How long are the poles?
I attach the jib halyard to my gin pole, and have a hard time picturing the A frame being connected to the forestay/furler, doesn't this make it less stable at the beginning of the manoeuver, as in being loose due to the length of the forestay? Not that it may have made a difference, I am just curious for future reference.
One inch conduit (As in electrical?) does not seem to be very sturdy, I know you said it did not bend, still...
I always loosen my upper shrouds almost completely and tighten them back a 1/2 inch or so.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

the A-frame was made out of 1" steel metal conduit(not EMT) but the thicker kind. The base of the a-frame was was attached to base of stanchions forward of cockpit. I had to move the furler back about 1-2feet to attach it to the a-frame (fairly easy). in terms of stability, nothing moved until i started to pull on the backstay.

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mlg3733
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Response Posted - 02/22/2009 : 14:05:30

One more go at it...
How do you control the Aframe movements after the mast gets moving to keep the tension on the rig as it comes down?
I must say I do admire your doing it by yourself, it is not something that I do alone.

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cks
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Response Posted - 02/22/2009 : 15:34:49

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by mlg3733
 One more go at it...
How do you control the Aframe movements after the mast gets moving to keep the tension on the rig as it comes down?
I must say I do admire your doing it by yourself, it is not something that I do alone.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

i used my main sheet led aft to the cockpit. again, the set-up is a copy of the one posted here before- there is youtube video of it-search under "unstepping mast catalina 25"- i'm sorry i don't remember the poster's name.

i won't be so brave next-time- i'll be sure to have an extra pair of hands ready to guide it up- however, the set-up's allure is that i wouldn't have had to wait for help to do maintenance or upgrades. this is the second time my jib halyard got wrapped preventing the jib from coming down. first time, it cost me $350 for someone from the boatyard to go up in a crane. i also have numerous other things i need to do- install a topping lift, fix the mast head light, check the VHF antenna, switch to all-rope hallyards, etc- i can't afford to do all these at once...

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Deric
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Response Posted - 02/22/2009 : 16:15:52

cks,

You are asking the good questions that folks in this association can help.
You may also look at some of the videos on youtube to get ideas.

Here is video that was a big hit a few months back:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r33VCObNroY

Best,
Deric

Edited by - on

Davy J
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Response Posted - 02/23/2009 : 08:15:17

That's my video. Some differences in my set-up:

(1) A-frame is connected to foward lower chain plates not stanchions.
(2) Lower forward shrouds are loosened 10 turns, upper shrouds loosened 5 turns.
(3) Lower forward shrouds are connected to the a-frame after being removed from chainplates.

The uppershrouds need to be loosened the 5 turns to overcome the slight extra tension that occurs as the mast tips backward. Once the mast is past this point, the shrouds become increasingly loose. This would allow the mast to swing to either side. With the set-up I use, the forward lowers take over at this point and prevent the mast from moving side to side. If you do not connect the forward lowers to the frame, you will need a helper to guide the mast down and prevent swaying.

Davy J

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cks
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Response Posted - 02/23/2009 : 17:51:33

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Davy J
 T
(3) Lower forward shrouds are connected to the a-frame after being removed from chainplates.

If you do not connect the forward lowers to the frame, you will need a helper to guide the mast down and prevent swaying.

Davy J
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

i think this may be where i went wrong- i didn't catch where the shrouds connected to the A-frame on your videos- where do you connect them? i completely removed the lower then the upper shrounds

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Davy J
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Response Posted - 02/24/2009 : 09:04:57

Here is a photo of the end of the a-frame that connects to the chainplate:

The tang is connected to the hinge point on the frame. The holes are 5" apart. This allows the forward lower shrouds enough slack to move through the range, but keeps the sway of the mast in check.

Here is the second video showing the parts:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsLxujYRsMQ

You might not need the extra hardware I use if you only raise or lower your mast occasionally. You will need the a-frame with tangs, block at stem fitting, and a line long enough to get to starboard winch with mast in a down postion.

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