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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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JIB Failure

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willy
Captain

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USA
422 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/31/2010 : 13:58:02

Has anyone out there had any difficulty keeping their stock 110 jib in good shape? I have had to have it repaired twice, and now there are about 4 2" tears running one after another horizontally down the leech. I really don't luff excessively. The one exception is that I cant seem to stop some "jibber - jabber" when I have it rolled partially when balancing my reefing. My plans are to take the sail to a loft and have them assess the sail and tell me what I might be doing wrong or tell me what I might need sail wise to keep the problem from recurring. I am wondering if maybe the jib car track needs to be further outboard as on my 03WB they are pretty far towards midship. Any thoughts?
Willy

Edgy, WB#655
Dewey Beach, DE

Edited by - on

piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 10/31/2010 : 20:25:00

Bill, Ya I too have had same. I took in once for repair but got two small tears which I have repaired with sail tape. They are holding up fine so far but I believe damage is due to sun over the years. I even roll up sail several turns past so sail is tight and not loose when parked. I have been looking into repairing but also want to upgrade to 135 one day.
Steve A

Edited by - on

willy
Captain

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USA
422 Posts

Response Posted - 11/02/2010 : 14:52:36

Well, I DO continue to sail when it blows 15 to 20K. I am thinking at this point talking to the sailmaker is the best plan before I buy. The jib just doesn't seem to like being reefed. I'll let you know what find out!

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 11/03/2010 : 08:55:11

When you reef the jib, are you moving the cars forward? Are you trimming the leach line to stop flutter?

Do you have a sock or remove the jib?

If you reef the jib often, you might consider double sheets and cars to avoid having to reset the cars a lot.

One other alternative is twings but they depend upon having coaming winches... if you do, I can describe them.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 11/03/2010 : 12:58:00

I'm thinking sun damage, which weakens the fabric. Is there an extra layer of fabric along the leech and foot--about 6" wide (either white Dacron or colored canvas)? If so, is the sail rolling up so that layer is on the outside? A sail without that "sun guard" is not made to be exposed full-time on a furler.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 11/03/2010 13:00:51

willy
Captain

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USA
422 Posts

Response Posted - 11/04/2010 : 16:08:26

Arlyn, the truth is that when I first got the boat, I did NOT move the jib cars forward all the time when reefed, and so may have done some damage then. Trimming the leech line helps for a bit, but the little jam cleat(term used loosely) used to secure it seems to slip. Its a furler without sock.

Dave, it does have a UV protective panel across the leech. although it is a lighter material than sunbrella.

I think my best bet at this point is to go see the sailmaker so he can tell me either how dumb I have been or how badly the sail was made! I have a feeling it's not the sail....

Edited by - on

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2269 Posts

Response Posted - 11/04/2010 : 16:32:57

Willy,

I have a similar issue as you, with a couple of 2" tears diagonally where the sail goes from 2 layers of cloth to one layer. I think it happened in a heavy blow a few weeks ago (described in a different thread), but I didn't notice it until I stripped the sails off for the winter.

Could you please let me know what sailmaker you use? I'd like to consider him instead of the guy I used last spring.

Edited by - TakeFive on 11/04/2010 16:34:03

bear
Admiral

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USA
909 Posts

Response Posted - 11/04/2010 : 18:20:05

I too had the about the same tears when my 110 jib was 12 years old, sent the sail up to Doyle sails for estimate, it was the off season and Doyle was located in Plattsburg N.Y. up near the Canadian border. There estimate was fair but gave me a reasonable price for a new 110 sail with the sunbrella add on. I think consideration should be given to a sails age and usage. I ended up sending the main up for cleaning and a couple of reinforcements for the money saved.JMTCW

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 11/04/2010 : 19:46:51

If you don't move the cars forward when reefing, in relative terms, you're loosening the leech and tightening the foot--actually not a bad strategy when the wind is up. This flattens the bottom of the sail and lets the top twist off. I did that occasionally with no damage to my sail.

Edited by - on

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2269 Posts

Response Posted - 11/04/2010 : 19:56:26

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by bear
 I too had the about the same tears when my 110 jib was 12 years old, sent the sail up to Doyle sails for estimate, it was the off season and Doyle was located in Plattsburg N.Y. up near the Canadian border. There estimate was fair but gave me a reasonable price for a new 110 sail with the sunbrella add on. I think consideration should be given to a sails age and usage. I ended up sending the main up for cleaning and a couple of reinforcements for the money saved.JMTCW
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I've thought about new sails, but wanted to do one more season with this one before deciding whether to get another 110 or increase to a 135. So I'd like to have it repaired.

How has the sunbrella sacrificial edge worked for you? I hear it hurts light wind performance, and over time can interfere with sail shape.

Edited by - on

bear
Admiral

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USA
909 Posts

Response Posted - 11/05/2010 : 04:42:57

Rick, I have had the new 110 for I think was my fourth season last summer. I am not all that good at judging sail shape, I do reef it when justified, others with more sail trim knowlege do about the same as I do. The cars are at mid-track. The sail itself is very stiff compared to the previous jib. Doyle sails sent info along with the sail about trimming during different points of sail. Where I think it really shines is on an extended down wind run with the main not deployed. Doyle did install tell-tales on the jib, but you can't always see them when the main is out. I can believe the sunbrella strip hurts light wind performance, but I'll take that tradeoff for the protection given when rolled up.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 11/05/2010 : 07:05:55

The hit on Sunbrella is it doesn't stretch as much as Dacron, and therefore could cause slight cupping of the sail, which would affect upwind performance somewhat, but could even help downwind. A racer wouldn't put it on a racing sail, but a racer wouldn't leave one racing sail on a furler all season. There are an awful lot of non-racing (or less serious racing) sailors out there with Sunbrella strips protecting their investments. My C-25 came to me with a 3-year-old 130% protected by a supposedly treated Dacron strip that deteriorated after a couple more years and would have cost over $500 to replace. That's to replace the strip. ("Voyager" Bruce--are you still using it at about age 13 now?) Everything's a compromise.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 11/05/2010 07:46:32

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 11/05/2010 : 12:32:16

Personally, I will go with Sunbrella on my next genny. I don't think the lighter sail fabric lasts long enough. I have a feeling any performance hit will be neglible and I don't race.

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jbkayaker
Captain

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USA
299 Posts

Response Posted - 11/06/2010 : 09:28:07

My primary interest is racing. Instead of getting a Sunbrella strip on my new 135% genoa I bought a sock to cover the sail. I leave the genoa on the furler year round. http://www.leesailcovers.com/Jib_Sock.php

It's takes about a minute to remove the sock and a few minutes to replace it at the end of the outing. I use the spinnaker halyard to pull the sock up zipping it as it goes. I'm winning light air races and I think the un-weighted leech is one reason.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 11/06/2010 : 20:25:14

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by jbkayaker
 My primary interest is racing... I'm winning light air races and I think the un-weighted leech is one reason.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Well, there you go! Good for you! For a racer, the shape and flow are critical. For a daysailor/cruiser, convenience and durability generally take precedence. Different strokes...

Edited by - on

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2269 Posts

Response Posted - 11/06/2010 : 22:08:16

I'm now leaning strongly toward getting a new 110 this winter. If I cheap out and repair the existing sail, I may be risking losing it completely during prime sailing season next year. I'd rather spend the money and have the peace of mind.

Since I'm just a recreational sailor and most interested in durability, I'll probably go for a sacrificial edge - either Sunbrella or lighter weight alternative (if there is one).

A couple people have suggested Doyle sails. Any other suggestions for someone who can provide a decent durable sale that's reasonably priced?

Edited by - on

bill bosworth
Navigator

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USA
172 Posts

Response Posted - 11/07/2010 : 18:14:35

When I first got my boat, I found that the PO had added a sunbrella cover to the 110 jib. When I tried sailing the boat I was very dissapointed in the sailing ability of the boat, It didn't point well, just felt like a dog. I decided that the problem was with the sunbrella cover. I got out a seam ripper and pulled it off. It made all the difference in the world. I've been using a jib sock to cover the sail since then. It's a little bit of work, but well worth it to me. I replaced the 110 two years ago, I had the Catalina Loft build me a new one. They did a good job at a reasonable price. I've been very happy with the sail. Catalina did add a dacron cover strip which doesn't seem to damage the sail shape.

Bill C250wb #134 Serendipity
On Kerr Lake, NC

Edited by - on

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2269 Posts

Response Posted - 11/07/2010 : 19:28:56

I will talk to the loft about the tradeoffs of a sacrificial layer. However, if your PO added Sunbrella on top of a pre-existing sail that was not designed for it, that may have made the problem worse. I'm no expert at this, but isn't it plausible that if the sacrificial cloth is designed into the sail from the beginning, it could replace at least one of the layers of fabric at the foot, thus reducing the weight somewhat? And I suppose that different weights and types of fabric could be considered, and different brands than Sunbrella.

The small tears in my sail happened at the edge of the clew triangle, where the corner fabric goes from two layers to one. The material there is notably limper than the rest of the sail. Although it is protected somewhat by the clew that wraps over it, I suspect enough UV rays penetrated over the years to weaken it. A strip of colored fabric, whether Sunbrella or something else, would likely be more effective at blocking the UV rays from passing deeper into the wrap.

But, like I said, I'll talk to the loft about that. So I'll repeat my questions: What lofts would all of you recommend?

Edited by - on

willy
Captain

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USA
422 Posts

Response Posted - 11/12/2010 : 15:53:58

The feedback I got from the folks at Bacon Sails in Annapolis was that if you are not racing,,,Sunbrella is definitely the way to go. My thoughts are that these boats are basically overpowered anyway so the trade off between performance and durability makes the performance a non issue. I do mostly coastal sailing in 8 to 20 knots of breeze.

I can not see ANYTHING that remotely resembles any kind of UV guard on the Jib that came with the boat when I bought it brand new. I have emailed Catalina Direct twice and they seem to be ignoring the question of whether the Jib would be identical to the one that came with the boat as original equipment or even if it is radial cut or not. They have told me that their replacement is 6oz Dacron with a Dacron UV protector. When I asked if they wanted to know which way the sail furled when winding they haven't responded to that either. All in all, not too confidence inspiring.
At this point I am planning on submitting request for quotation to North Sails and also to Bacon, and if they decide to get back to me, I will find out how much extra Catalina Direct wants to add Sunbrella
I'll keep you posted!
Willy

Edited by - on

willy
Captain

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USA
422 Posts

Response Posted - 11/12/2010 : 15:56:40

Oh yeah, Rick when I lived in Wilmington I had good experiences working with Linthicum Sailmakers in Somerdale NJ!

http://www.linthicumsailmakers.com/

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TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2269 Posts

Response Posted - 11/12/2010 : 22:20:04

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by willy
 Oh yeah, Rick when I lived in Wilmington I had good experiences working with Linthicum Sailmakers in Somerdale NJ!

http://www.linthicumsailmakers.com/
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Thanks for the tip - I will call them next week. I am waiting for a quote from Chuck at Doyle in Annapolis, but it seems slow in coming. FYI, he is recommending a 6 oz Challenger Dacron material with a UV protective edge in a lighter weight material than Sunbrella (can't remember the trade name - left my notes in the office).

Edited by - on

willy
Captain

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USA
422 Posts

Response Posted - 11/13/2010 : 13:01:00

Rick,
Bacon sails...www.baconsails.com in Annapolis has a quote worksheet on their website. $770.33 for the 110 with Sunrella and all the bells and whistles but I am not yet certain of the weight of the dacron.
Bill

Edited by - on

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2269 Posts

Response Posted - 11/16/2010 : 20:45:00

Doyle's quote came back same $$ as Bacon for 7.3 oz. Dacron. Linthicum was a bit higher. All the sails have the same features (sacrificial UV layer, etc.). The tie-breaker is that Chuck at Doyle grew up in the Philly area sailing on the Delaware, and said he would come up and do a test drive with the new sail in the spring. So I'll probably go with him once I decide whether to have a Sunbrella sacrificial edge or use lighter-weight Weathermax instead.

Edited by - TakeFive on 11/16/2010 20:47:18

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2010 : 08:39:13

A number of C-25 owners have been very pleased working with Gary Swenson at Ullman's Ventura loft. Apparently he asks all the right questions, designs the right sail, and quotes a fair price. I have no personal experience... They apparently make the sails for CD.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 11/17/2010 08:41:32

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