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Mast raising? Really?

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mikesuej
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USA
119 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/15/2011 : 08:31:42

My cat250wk came with a nice trailer with the big winch and mast raising post. I was messin' about in the anchor locker and saw what I'll describe as a stainless eye post by the inspection port in the anchor locker. Not knowing what it is, I went to the manual and it said something about this "eye" being part of a mast raising system.

Can anyone help? I'd love to be able to easily drop the mast at the slip, but I didn't know there was any other way than on the trailer.

Thanks very much.
MJ

Michael T. Janocik
Seatitude

Edited by - on

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 07/15/2011 : 08:47:30

I don't have a trailer, but I've seen the setups. I'm not aware of the eye bolt being part of the mast raising system for the trailers. However, many of us have set up mast raising systems that use that bolt with a gin pole. You should do a search on gin pole for the many different configurations. This thread has some pics of my own system:

http://catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=21203&whichpage=3

Some other pics here:

http://catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=21203&whichpage=3

Edited by - TakeFive on 07/15/2011 10:22:31

John Russell
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Response Posted - 07/15/2011 : 09:31:07

I never bothered to look that up. I just assumed that to be the point where the bitter end of the anchor rode was tied off. No, I don't rely on that to hold the boat. I use a cleat for that. I rely on it to keep me from losing anchor, chain and rode overboard.

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 07/15/2011 : 14:49:38

We've never used that eye bolt for anything other than securing our two anchor rodes to the inside of the locker like John said. I'm not even sure what you'd use an eye bolt up there for when raising or lowering the mast with the trailer. Maybe in conjunction with a gin pole, but I'm pretty sure nobody does that either.

Until just now, I'd never thought of that bolt as anything other than a retention system for the anchors (and tie off to a cleat to hold the load).

Edited by - on

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 07/15/2011 : 15:03:47

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by delliottgI'm not even sure what you'd use an eye bolt up there for when raising or lowering the mast with the trailer. Maybe in conjunction with a gin pole, but I'm pretty sure nobody does that either.

Until just now, I'd never thought of that bolt as anything other than a retention system for the anchors (and tie off to a cleat to hold the load).
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Like the others, I use the eye bolt to tie off the bitter ends of my anchor rodes. However, if you search for the multiple threads on gin poles, almost every one of them uses the bolt as the attachment point for the winch strap/cable/line:

<center>

</center>

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John Russell
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Response Posted - 07/15/2011 : 17:28:29

Looking at that pic, Rick, I could see using that as an attachment point for a strap from the end of gin pole. I wonder of it has the strength necessary to attach a block to improve purchase, maybe even use the mainsheet rigging to haul up the mast and control its descent. I wonder what it's backing looks like.

Man, I like this idea. Maybe I'll give Catalina a call next week and ask about its backing. I'm going to take Kaija to a new winter storage facility and have to take the mast down on the water for the first time this fall. Their crane lift requires the mast down.

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TakeFive
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Response Posted - 07/15/2011 : 20:20:17

John,

Please let us know what Catalina says about the backing for the eye bolt. I had always assumed that it would be strong enough for the tension of the gin pole strap. The static tension is dictated by the geometry of the gin pole and the mast harness, and will be the same whether you use a winch or a block and tackle for the mast raising/dropping. A failure of that bolt would pose a catastrophic hazard, so its strength is very important.

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mikesuej
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119 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2011 : 05:43:46

Oops - I wasn't very clear. . . . I, too use the eye strap shown as an anchor anchor. If you look at Rythymdoctor's pic above, I was trying to figure out what the little steel column with a hole in it is that you can see just above the inspection port on the left side of the bow point - just to the left of the strap, about 1/3 of the way up from the strap.

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TakeFive
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Response Posted - 07/16/2011 : 07:03:30

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by mikesuej
 Oops - I wasn't very clear. . . . I, too use the eye strap shown as an anchor anchor. If you look at Rythymdoctor's pic above, I was trying to figure out what the little steel column with a hole in it is that you can see just above the inspection port on the left side of the bow point - just to the left of the strap, about 1/3 of the way up from the strap.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
It's an air vent for the fresh water tank. When you put a hose into the inlet port the air that you displace needs to go somewhere. This allows the air to escape without "burping" through the inlet port. It also prevents a vacuum from occurring as you draw water out of the tank.

Edited by - TakeFive on 07/16/2011 07:05:18

Jack Schafer
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112 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2011 : 14:37:56

OK you new guys, The older 250's came with the mast raising system that included a gin pole that set in the hole in the front bottom of the mast, A block and tackle that hooked on that eye boldt in anchor locker and the forward end of the gin pole. the Jib halyard connects to the top half of the gin pole. directly opposite of the block attachment. Place babystays in mast about 7 ft up on the mast and connect them to the rings on the stantions. Put tension on the jib halyard and hoist the mast with the block and tackle. I love this system because I can raise and lower the mast while it is in the slip.

Edited by - on

John Russell
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Response Posted - 07/16/2011 : 16:17:48

guess that answers the question about its strength

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britinusa
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Response Posted - 09/11/2012 : 04:10:15

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Jack Schafer
 OK you new guys, The older 250's came with the mast raising system that included a gin pole that set in the hole in the front bottom of the mast, A block and tackle that hooked on that eye boldt in anchor locker and the forward end of the gin pole. the Jib halyard connects to the top half of the gin pole. directly opposite of the block attachment. Place babystays in mast about 7 ft up on the mast and connect them to the rings on the stantions. Put tension on the jib halyard and hoist the mast with the block and tackle. I love this system because I can raise and lower the mast while it is in the slip.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Jack, how about taking a bunch of pics of the mast raising using that setup on your boat and posting it to an Album on the site????

Paul

Edited by - on

Jack Schafer
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112 Posts

Response Posted - 09/11/2012 : 11:31:41

I will try to take some pictures when I haul the boat,probably mid October

Edited by - on

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 09/11/2012 : 11:38:33

In case anyone is interested, [url="https://www.facebook.com/v/2305547526921"]click here[/url] for a video I made last fall. I think I posted it in another thread at the time.

Edited by - on

bear
Admiral

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909 Posts

Response Posted - 09/11/2012 : 18:52:26

MY '95 C 250 owners manual " raising the mast" says in part "Install tackle w/fiddle block at eye in mast raising tube and fiddle w/cam cleat at pad eye inside anchor well". I've tried this old system a few times and gave up on it. It was dangerous. I'll pay the $50 to have the marina step the mast.

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Arlyn Stewart
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2980 Posts

Response Posted - 09/19/2012 : 15:15:54

There was indeed some danger in the old system. It depended on the baby stays to keep the mast in column as it was raised and lowered. The greatest shortcoming in the system was the use of a block and tackle with a cam cleat. Operating the tackle took fair effort to raise and during lowering it was sometimes difficult to release the cam cleat.

Some of us abandoned the B&T for a small trailer winch bolted to the gin pole and it worked much better for several reasons. It required little effort. It placed the operator in a much better position to monitor the raising/lowering. It allowed much easier stopping/starting to clear a fouled stay. It placed the operator in a much better place to handle the luff of the furler while operating the winch at the same time. It truly made raising/lowering the mast a simple task for one person.

There were two distinct advantages of the system over the trailer system. First, it of course didn't require the trailer so could be used in the slip. The second, the operator remained on the boat so there was no need to mount/dismount or have two operators.

For those who would like a system with those advantages, the better system would likely be the more evolved Standing A Frame.

http://pages.suddenlink.net/arlyn/sailing/mrs.html

Edited by - on

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 09/19/2012 : 16:45:25

Arlyn,

As I look at your sketch, I am a little concerned about the length of the 2x4's. Since the spreader height on a standard rig C250 is about 14 feet, a typical 8 foot long 2x4 would cause the gin pole line to pull at an unfavorable angle (almost vertical, with little or no horizontal component) as the mast approaches vertical. I went to your website, and saw that you described this length as non-critical. It looks to me like the 2x4's need to be pretty long - 14 or 15 feet (since they are lashed about a foot lower than the mast step). Can you offer comments on this based on your experience with it?

Edited by - on

zeil
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Canada
1297 Posts

Response Posted - 09/19/2012 : 19:41:24

The old, 1995 system, maybe clumsy and requires two people, it has worked very well for us. We used it dozens of times on and off the trailer as well as on the water in a variety of locations during our Trent/Severn trip.

The advantage, we find, of using the block and tackle, anchor locker eye bolt, gin pole and baby stays are:

1)If a mast problem occurs away from your slip the raising and lowering system is available as part of the boat's gear, no trailer or outside help needed

2)Storing: To make storing of the gin pole even easier we cut it in half and sleeved it without loosing rigidity. The baby stays wrap in a small bundle and stores in the cockpit storage and the block and tackle provides back-up gear if required

3)If it is preferred to raise/lower the mast by yourself consider adding a block to the anchor locker's eye-bolt, one to the underside of the gin pole and mount a small trailer winch also to the gin pole at working height when the mast in an upright position. This enables one to winch and watch without having one person sitting with their back awkward to the mast raising process and having problems releasing the line.

Edited by - zeil on 09/19/2012 19:43:15

Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 09/22/2012 : 07:21:10

TakeFive.... I actually use a mono gin pole modified somewhat from those supplied with the '95-'96 models (pre trailer system). My mono pole is telescoping for shorter storage and has a winch installed on it to replace the block and tackle of the original system. It works very well and is quite simple for my single handling needs.

The Standing A Frame was offered because of the laments of several owners who desired a system not requiring the trailer and not having the mast hole for the mono gin pole or the baby stays that are required for the mono pole. Previous A frame gin poles were articulated, meaning they required bottom pivot or rotational points and their length was established by the length from those pivot points to the stem fitting or anchor locker eye so that when rotated forward, the apex of the A frame was over the stem/anchor locker eye.

The Standing A Frame saves the complication of pivot points, allows the gin pole to be longer and eliminates the need for a critical length pole. And... of course, if the boat remains level, baby stays are not needed. I'm thinking that a Standing A Frame would be about 10-11 feet tall and the point at which the the mainsail halyard raises and secures the mast bridal should match that height when the mast reaches vertical.

I'd use Marks A Lot on the halyard at the cleat point to establish the reference for positioning the bridal.

I'd also certainly select materials to construct the A frame that didn't flex too much under the compression loads. If needed, some cross bracing could be implemented.

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 09/22/2012 07:28:33

britinusa
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Response Posted - 09/22/2012 : 09:42:25

I have gone around and around on this issue. Lowering/Raising the mast on JD on the water would only be accomplished if the rig was OSHA approved. We have raised the rig over a hundred times, so it's no big deal 'if the boat is on the trailer'!

I just don't like the idea of an A-Frame, a piece of hardware that takes up space and rarely used.

So always keeping my eye out for an alternative.

It would seem to me that a gin pole pivoting around the mast base bolt would be the easiest method.

I believe that Henk uses something like that, with webbing straps to hold the gin pole along the fore-aft line of the boat.

Our Baby stays do a great job of keeping the mast parallel to the keel, so no worries of it shifting to the side.

The gin pole would need straps/lines/baby stays to keep it parallel to the keel.

Alyn's point about being in a good position and ease of working the winch is very valid. (OSHA would approve)

I have frequently considered using our finger pole as the gin pole, and would just need some device to attach it to the mast base bolt.

A stainless steel cup welded to a pair of parallel plates that would fit between the mast and the base plate is an idea. The 'pole base' (cup and plates) would be about a foot long, the plates being about 3" wide and 1/8" thick. I could stay in place when the mast is up. Alternatively the plates could have slots rather than holes, that slot over the mast base bolt. That would allow it to be removed after raising the mast.
<center>

Gin Pole Mast Cup
This is my concept of a Stainless Steel Cup to hold the end of the Finger pole as a Gin Pole for raising and lowering the mast on the water.</center>

Edited by - on

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 09/22/2012 : 13:38:07

Realize that if the gin pole is attached to the mast directly above the step, then it does not need a pivot point at all. I will maintain a constant (preferably 90 degree) angle with the mast as the mast itself pivots. So I just use a spare tire bracket from my Trophy boat trailer, which is exactly the same width as the mast:

<center>

</center>

I did not want to wait to order baby stays, and I was nervous that they might not be the exact right length (since they don't stretch at all). I have found ratchet straps to be perfectly fine for keeping the mast in column in gentle breezes and on the hard (no rocking). The wire might work better for harder breezes or on the water, but I choose not to drop the mast in those conditions. I bought a set of four of the straps, and use two for the mast and two for the gin pole:
<center>

</center>

I do use some duct tape to enclose the S-hooks just to make sure they do not fall off when the straps go slack.

Edited by - on

britinusa
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Response Posted - 09/22/2012 : 14:08:49

Gin Pole Cup with Mast
Showing it with the Mast base plate.</center>

<center>

Gin Pole Mast Cup III
Shown with the Finger pole fitted into the Gin Pole Cup.</center>

<center>

Overview of the Gin Pole Cup Concept
The finger pole would be inserted into the Cup which is slid onto the mast bolt through the Mast Base Plate.</center>

[url="https://www.catalina-capri-25s.net/cgi-local/MBR_gallery.cgi?Album+1000+66"]
Mast Raising Concept - Click to view Album[/url]

Edited by - britinusa on 09/22/2012 15:45:02

zeil
Master Marine Consultant

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1297 Posts

Response Posted - 09/22/2012 : 19:46:42

Paul... Your drawing look very do-able to me

1) You could consider adding a block to the working end of your gin-pole so the line to your winch runs parallel to the gin pole

2) Consider connecting the fore-stay or your halyard to the gin-pole

3) If you use the fore-stay to connect to the gin-pole you would be able use the halyard as extra security if anything goes wrong

4) As mentioned we cut and sleeved the gin-pole approximately in half for easy storing. It is nice to have a two part sleeved gin-pole but not required. It allows you to consider connecting the mast half first and then insert the working end with block and winch. Use of baby stays is, in our opinion, a must especially with winds or on the water. The foot of the gin-pole does not hinge on the mast base when using your fore-stay... (we have a hank-on jib)

5) In our case we do not need to brace the gin-pole... it stays in column but... you may wish to consider adding this for extra safety

Edited by - zeil on 09/22/2012 20:06:57

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