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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 250 Specific Forum

Better light wind performance

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philagnes2003
1st Mate

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USA
68 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/12/2012 : 03:46:24

We would like more light air capability on our 250, we currently have a 110 jib, would our money/performance be better spent on a drifter or Whisker Pole to pole out the 110 (I don't have a spare halyard or spare topping lift, so I need to factor that in) . We are generally cruisers, my wife wanted a bigger jib, but from reading the forums I think 110 is the right choice 90% of the time.

Could the additional topping lift be rigged so I could use it as Halyard?

Thanks

Mac's Bounty
2003 C250 WK #679
Orient Harbor, NY

If you think you can, or think you can't, pretty soon you find out your are right! H.F.

Edited by - on

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2269 Posts

Response Posted - 06/12/2012 : 04:48:02

Here's a reply I posted on [url="http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=21637&SearchTerms=forespar"]another thread[/url] last fall. The medium duty pole has proved to be adequate for my 110 in light wind. It's light enough that no topping lift is needed, so that has simplified things greatly, and the $100 price I paid was reasonable (compared to >$300 for the larger poles). FYI, I replaced my oversize 1/2" jib sheets with 3/8", which fit nicely through the little claw:

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by RhythmDoctor
 I'd like to reactivate this thread with some questions relevant to my own situation.

As we've gained more confidence this year, we have started doing more wing-on-wing sailing. I generally prefer to keep the wind off our stern quarter, but sometimes we just have to go DDW to stay in the river, especially when opposing currents make tacking impossible.

In light winds our 110 genoa flops around a lot when going downwind, so a whisker pole seems like it would help. I've done my best to read the existing threads on this topic, but have a couple additional questions.

I'm not ready to spend big $$$ on a bigger or heavier duty pole, and attempts to find a used one have not yielded anything. Since I have a $20 WM coupon that expires in a couple days, and Defender's prices for this are worse than WM due to shipping surcharges, I picked up an inexpensive 6-12' pole (Forespar #406100, the one with latches at both ends) at their store today.

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I think that this will meet my needs for getting started, since I only have a 110 genoa, and will use this generally in light winds.

My sheets are all 1/2", and the genoa sheets are a single line with a cow hitch through the clew cringle. The plastic latches at both ends of this pole are not nearly big enough to fit a 1/2" sheet. I'm considering putting a loop through the cringle for the sole purpose of attaching the pole. It would either be a 1/4" nylon or dacron loop, or possibly a SS quick link. Either will be a tight fit, because the 1/2" sheets really fill up the cringle at this point. This is part of the reason I did not consider a spike end on the pole.

Do any of you have experience to share with this? I think someone posted the loop idea in a previous post, and several people seemed to have the 6-12' ADJ (non-HD) pole with a C250.

I have not opened the pole's packaging yet, so I'm trying to determine whether to return it unused, or keep it and install it. I will not have much chance to test it out before haulout for the season.

My other question is about rigging a preventer, but I'll start a separate thread for this.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Edited by - TakeFive on 06/12/2012 04:55:34

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 06/12/2012 : 09:01:07

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> 110 is the right choice 90% of the time <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
HHhhhmmmmmm, I think from what I've read (and experienced) a 135% genoa is the ideal sail and you'll notice the difference from your 110 profoundly and right away. Before I bought a whisker I'd get the bigger sail. On Bamboo I opted for the 150% which is a little cumbersome single handling (it was a hank on) unless you stuff your sails but the 135% will give you better performance all the way around whereas the pole will aid in downwind sailing only. Don't get me wrong, the whisker pole is great (I made one from a $45 paint extension that worked very well) and you should get one.

Edited by - on

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 06/12/2012 : 09:35:37

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by DaveR
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> 110 is the right choice 90% of the time <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
HHhhhmmmmmm, I think from what I've read (and experienced) a 135% genoa is the ideal sail and you'll notice the difference from your 110 profoundly and right away. Before I bought a whisker I'd get the bigger sail. On Bamboo I opted for the 150% which is a little cumbersome...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I'm going to avoid this debate, aside from pointing out that his C250 is a totally different boat from your C25. These differences are the reason why we post these sorts of questions in the C250 subforum. Local wind conditions will also have a large effect on the optimum sail choice.

Edited by - TakeFive on 06/12/2012 09:37:57

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Response Posted - 06/12/2012 : 10:50:01

Yep, I know. I understand that your boats are more tender, especially the WB. That Phil is discussing light air suggests his conditions. I'll be interested to see what 250 owners have to say. I'll be surprised if they think a whisker is a better way to go.

Reading Phil's post again I see I didn't even acknowledge the Drifter part of his question. I've never owned one and only flew one with a friend a couple times, a little tricky to get it right but WAY COOL when you get the hang of it and great down wind performance. Good for 1 to 12 knots of wind I'd guess. We also were able to adjust our heading to most of a reach and it still did very well. A little expensive (but what sail isn't?).

Edited by - DaveR on 06/12/2012 10:58:54

ruachwrights
Captain

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USA
258 Posts

Response Posted - 06/12/2012 : 11:21:39

Get the 135% if you can afford it. I do most of my sailing in Narragansett bay and make periodic cruising trips out into the Atlantic down to Mystic CT or up to the Nashon Island chain with my family. We are not faint of heart. I had many positive experiences with my 150% down wind, up wind, and light air sailing. We do employ a whisker pole on a long down wind run. I really didn't have many negative issues with the sail except in conditions above 20kn where the little corner I would furl out was so high up, when sailing up wind, I wondered if it was all that effective in driving the hull. I just ordered a new 135% to replace my now ragged 150% through FX Sails who provide what appears to be the best sail for the price. They also allowed me to pay it off in installments. Have yet to receive it however, even though it was promised last week and called the owner and he said it was just shipped out yesterday. Roller furling is fantastic in that it enables one to reduce sail if its windy, or let it all hang out and have fun on those days the big heavy cruisers have to rely on their iron genny. 135% should give you the greatest flexibility and fun.

Vern Wright
"Hajime"

Edited by - on

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 06/12/2012 : 11:31:40

Lots has already been posted on the 110 vs. 135 question. I know of one guy who has a 150 on a C250, but it's very rare on the C250. There's one guy here who recently posted (I think it's John Russell IIRC) who recently got a 135 and wishes he had a 110, and plans to go back to a 110 on his next replacement. I did the opposite - I had to replace my 110 a year ago, and based on my one season sailing in 2010 I got another 110. Last season (2011) the air was lighter, and I might have gone with a 135 instead if I had known. So I, personally, am on the fence about which size is best for my C250.

I don't think a whisker pole is an either/or choice. It will help you with whichever sail you have. I notice a significant difference using it with my 110. So I'd advise spending $100 on a pole rather than $700-900 on a new sail.

Some recommend a 110 for normal conditions, with a drifter to use for light air days.

Edited by - on

John Russell
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3444 Posts

Response Posted - 06/12/2012 : 16:03:57

I replaced my 110% with a 135%. If I were to do it over, I'd keep the 110% and buy a light wind sail a.k.a. drifter/gennaker/assym.

Edited by - on

philagnes2003
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 06/12/2012 : 17:04:17

Thanks for the great feedback, funny my wife read it saying, "See we should get the 135", I said “wait hold on, look at these posts again”, I would like to hear move about the drifter (cheaper right)?

Ultimately we would probably get a 135 or drifter and a whisker pole. Which would you do first?

BTW my wife has much more sailing experience, however I am much more enlightened via these forums.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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3704 Posts

Response Posted - 06/12/2012 : 17:44:03

I'd get the 135 because it is useful in more wind conditions and all points of sail.

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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2015 Posts

Response Posted - 06/12/2012 : 18:26:43

The Drifter is more expensive.

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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5404 Posts

Response Posted - 06/12/2012 : 18:37:44

We have a 110%, 150% and Asym.

Rarely use the 150% simply because recent weather has dictated that we'll need to reef.

And then the light airs turn up, and out comes the Asym, beautiful big balloon up front. Whoooo Hooo!

Of course, as we have the rigging for the Asym we also have the rigging for the 150%, so there's a better chance we'll carry it. With the CDI furler, it's a bit of a pain to switch sails, so we tend to make the decision on which sail to load up at the Marina.

Paul

Edited by - on

DaveR
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Response Posted - 06/14/2012 : 05:42:02

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> recent weather has dictated that we'll need to reef <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I KNOW!!! We had a very windy spring in Daytona. Seems to be getting back to norms now though.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 06/14/2012 : 07:09:52

Re: drifter vs. 135, I'll just offer that the 135 rolls out, rolls in, changes sizes--no muss, no fuss. The drifter requires setting up on the foredeck, hoisting, dousing, bagging, storing,... But its lighter cloth shapes a little better in light air, and can be purdier.

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John Russell
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Response Posted - 06/14/2012 : 11:39:42

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 ...The drifter requires setting up on the foredeck, hoisting, dousing, bagging, storing,... <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Yeah, but you're not going anywhere anyway. So, go up on deck and enjoy the view.

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piseas
Former Treasurer

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2017 Posts

Response Posted - 06/15/2012 : 11:56:55

I recently(2months ago)replaced my worn out 110 with a 135 Ullman.
I immediately noticed the difference in speed. But in a good way. I never felt it was too much cloth for my 250. I sail in the Pacific coastal waters of SoCal. I have had breezes up to 15kts and have not needed to furl the sail. I got PiSeas II up to 6.9 kts. I have NO regrets even though the sail was kinda a pain to install and get correctly set up. I was fortunate that another of our members, John P. was there to assist me. Two heads were better than one, in my case. Thanks again John:)!
Steve A

Edited by - on

jbkayaker
Captain

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USA
299 Posts

Response Posted - 06/17/2012 : 17:42:16

I've always thought the 110% was standard for the water ballast model and the 135% was standard for the wing keel. So is this discussion about a genoa for a water ballast C250 or a wing keel C250 ?

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TakeFive
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Response Posted - 06/17/2012 : 19:07:10

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by jbkayaker
 I've always thought the 110% was standard for the water ballast model and the 135% was standard for the wing keel. So is this discussion about a genoa for a water ballast C250 or a wing keel C250 ?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
OP said he has a WK.

I think the "standard" sail for WK has varied over different model years, much as the availability of tall rig also changed over time.

Edited by - TakeFive on 06/17/2012 19:08:18

philagnes2003
1st Mate

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USA
68 Posts

Response Posted - 06/18/2012 : 03:13:26

Yes we do have the Wing Keel version, Steve A (PiSeas II) our boats are very close, so I like that you had a positive experience, did you get the sail from Catalina Direct? Also why was the sail difucult to set up? I was thinking you just needed to add more wraps to the furling drum. BTW I have the Snap Furl from SCHAEFER MARINE.

Thanks Everyone.

Edited by - on

piseas
Former Treasurer

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Response Posted - 06/22/2012 : 07:32:39

We both has an '03 C250 with a Snap Furl. I got the sail from
ULLMAN SAILS VENTURA,CA-OWNED and OPERATED by Gary Swenson. I talked to him directly. I ordered end of last year to get best price, around $600. It took about 3 or 4 months to arrive. I can give you specifics what I ordered, if you want.
RE install, I had to remove more that I had thought I would need to. It took about 2 hours. I had to play with raising and lowering sail(as it was new, its very tight pulling thru the feeder slot even with the #5tape) to get exact height so that the sail would furl properly. But once I got it all down, she was a pleasure to sail. I recommend a 2nd hand.
Oh I did not get a window in the sail as I mostly do coastal but if you sail in lake or harbor, I would recommend for better vision, ie seeing other boat, etc!
If you go with Gary, mention my name as recent buyer and that you are a member. If you have other questions, let me know.
Steve A

Edited by - on

philagnes2003
1st Mate

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USA
68 Posts

Response Posted - 06/26/2012 : 09:27:50

Yes I would like the specifics of what you ordered, I will order it at the end of the season too.

thanks so much
-Phil

Edited by - on

philagnes2003
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 09/08/2012 : 03:12:27

Hey Steve,can I have the specifics of what you ordered?

Thanks Phil

Edited by - on

jbkayaker
Captain

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USA
299 Posts

Response Posted - 09/18/2012 : 08:44:23

If you buy a whisker pole get one with that snaps closed at BOTH ends. Then if you happen to not get one end closed your pole doesn't fall into the water and sink. My $130 pole is now on a lake bottom.

Edited by - on

hughbamford
Deckhand

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Australia
17 Posts

Response Posted - 09/18/2012 : 18:30:38

Also fill the pole with either expandable foam or wine corks (more fun)prior to sealing the ends, it will keep the pole at water level or just below for retrieval.

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 09/23/2012 : 11:25:18

Great idea Hugh!

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