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No, I haven't disappeared - moving Catalina 25

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JimGo
Admiral

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USA
962 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/27/2011 : 12:56:12

Thanks again everyone for your feedback on the Catalina 25 in Ocean City with the broken bow pulpit. I gave up on that one, and looked at a LOT of other boats. I wound up making an offer on a different Catalina 25. I'm still waiting to hear whether the deal will go through. Now, I just have to figure out how to get her home. I could, of course, sail her. But I have some reservations since I'm still new, she's a new boat to me, and I'm not familiar with the area where the boat is located (near Forked River, NJ). I also suspect that it's more like a 2 day trip from origin to destination (Ocean City, NJ), so that will make things tougher (though there are plenty of marinas along the way, if I want to go the ICW). But I'm also considering trailering her. Finding a trailer is, shall we say, interesting. A new one would cost more than the boat! So, I'm looking at used trailers, and trying to figure out the correct height for bunks, and the width for the keel guide over the keel support. Ideally, I'd prefer to rent a trailer (or borrow one), but I've had trouble finding one to rent that will work with a sailboat, even one with a relatively low draft.

So, a few questions are buried in this post:
1) If you were new to a 25 and had "limited" sailing experience, especially in the origin/destination waters, would you consider sailing/powering her home? For reference, she's a 1984 that looks to be very well maintained.
2) Would you consider taking her out in the ocean (would probably save a fair bit of time, due to the twists and turns in the ICW)?
3) If you have a trailer for your 25, do you use bunks or rollers? How high above the keel support do they rest?
4) Are there any online guides for setting up a trailer for the 25 swing keel?

OK, I think that's it for now! :)

Thanks in advance for any pointers!

- Jim
Formerly of 1984 C25 named Dragon Wing

NOTE: In my case, PLEASE don't confuse stars/number of posts with actual knowledge. On any topic.

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1181 Posts

Response Posted - 09/27/2011 : 13:37:30

Dependent on your experience behind the helm of a sailboat:
The ICW will probably mean motoring a lot of the way. How is the engine?
Have you ever traveled any distance on the ICW and are aware of the obstacles you may encounter?
If you go by sea are there places to head for if problems arise?
Do you have SeaTow insurance or something similar?
Is there a functioning VHF radio?
Do you know anyone with sailing experience who might accompany you?
How are the seas around there in October?
A properly equipped C25 is a very forgiving vessel and definitely capable of the trip you mention. Your experience and the condition of the vessel are probably the determining factors.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
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Response Posted - 09/27/2011 : 13:57:07

Having it transported commercially is an option, but probably expensive. Check here in the Swapmeet: http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=21793 Taking it up the ICW and getting a transient slip wouldn't be much of a problem if you have another person to help and a reliable motor. Get charts and a gps, even an inexpensive handheld would help you track you position on the charts, but learn to use it first if you're not familiar with position finding. Don't do it alone, and don't go outside (ocean). I store my trailer in Port Clinton, so I can't get any measurements for you. The bunks or rollers (what I have) need to be high enough to a leave couple of inches between the retracted keel and the center member of the trailer, then lower the keel onto the trailer with a short 1X3 board as a pad. Mine has a roller to support the keel, but no keel guides. It would probably be worth the money to have the boat lifted and put on the trailer unless you have an experienced helper and trailer set up for an SK.

Edited by - on

JimGo
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Response Posted - 09/27/2011 : 13:59:47

I've sailed a bit, but only on smaller craft (14's, 19's). The engine looks to be in good shape (it's an outboard, obviously), but seems to run OK.

I haven't traveled any distance on the ICW, but I've been trying to study the latest online charts to get a feel for the channel's twists and turns, where obstacles exist, and the bridges that are between the origin and destination.

The actual "open" portion of the trip wouldn't be TOO long, about 10-15 miles. There are, if I recall correctly, 2 or 3 inlets along the way.

I'll be getting SeaTow.

There is a VHF, but if I do the trip I'll probably buy a handheld.

I have a friend with sailing experience, but we'd probably kill each other on a 2 day trip.

As I understand it, the seas get choppy (3-6') this time of year. Not TOO bad, but enough to make things interesting.

My experience is, admittedly limited, and the condition of the vessel is a relative unknown. The owners sail her pretty regularly, but that doesn't really mean much.

Edited by - on

OJ
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Response Posted - 09/27/2011 : 14:09:11

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimGo
 (3) If you have a trailer for your 25, do you use bunks or rollers? How high above the keel support do they rest?
(4) Are there any online guides for setting up a trailer for the 25 swing keel?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Those are tough questions to answer without more info. There are at least 4 versions of trailers for the C25. Trail-Rite had 2 versions, EZ Loader had at least 1 version and then there's all the rest. Some have roller trains, some have bunks, yachti, yachti, yachti.

Here's a question for you - what are you planning to tow with?

The fun is only just beginning!

Edited by - OJ on 09/27/2011 14:10:48

JimGo
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Response Posted - 09/27/2011 : 14:13:27

Tow vehicle will _not_ be our SUV; it isn't strong enough. We have a Honda Pilot that's only rated to 3500 lbs. So, I'd probably either be borrowing my father's Mountaineer or renting. To the best of my recollection, none of my friends/family has a pick-up or anything bigger that would tow it. If we go the trailer route, we'll probably "upgrade" one of our cars so it can actually handle the trailer.

Edited by - on

PCP777
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Response Posted - 09/27/2011 : 14:18:55

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimGo
 I've sailed a bit, but only on smaller craft (14's, 19's). The engine looks to be in good shape (it's an outboard, obviously), but seems to run OK.

I haven't traveled any distance on the ICW, but I've been trying to study the latest online charts to get a feel for the channel's twists and turns, where obstacles exist, and the bridges that are between the origin and destination.

The actual "open" portion of the trip wouldn't be TOO long, about 10-15 miles. There are, if I recall correctly, 2 or 3 inlets along the way.

I'll be getting SeaTow.

There is a VHF, but if I do the trip I'll probably buy a handheld.

I have a friend with sailing experience, but we'd probably kill each other on a 2 day trip.

As I understand it, the seas get choppy (3-6') this time of year. Not TOO bad, but enough to make things interesting.

My experience is, admittedly limited, and the condition of the vessel is a relative unknown. The owners sail her pretty regularly, but that doesn't really mean much.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

How about as part of the deal they sail the boat to you or with you? At the very least, ask them what they would do in your shoes. I would definitely get someone to sail with you that has experience with larger keel boats and knows something about navigation.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 09/27/2011 : 14:20:59

If you have a friend with a reasonable amount of sailing experience, and some experience on the ICW, the trip should be a piece of cake. From your description, all but 10-15 miles is in sheltered, ICW waters. The 10-15 mile open water stretch can be sailed or motored in any decent conditions in 3-4 hours. That should give you an ample weather window for safety. The radio and your tow insurance will protect you from mechanical breakdown while on the outside. So long as your friend can read a chart, find and navigate the inlets and the ICW, it should be EZ. You should consider delaying the passage, when you go outside the ICW, if the wind is going to be on the nose, because outboard motors don't do well going to windward in big winds and seas. (The prop lifts out of the water.) In that case, just wait a day or two for calmer weather, or for winds other than from the direction where you are heading. Take plenty of gas. If you don't wait too late, there should still be good sailing weather.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 09/27/2011 14:25:14

dmpilc
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Response Posted - 09/27/2011 : 14:21:55

I've got the trailer in the swapmeet reference that DaveB linked you to above. My trailer is a Catalina 25 trailer for a fin keel boat, but we have used it for a swing keel C-25 also, which is what I have. It's a 1984 boat, too. Let me know if you are interested and we can talk over the specifics. Distance will be a factor, obviously.

Edited by - on

JimGo
Admiral

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Response Posted - 09/27/2011 : 14:21:56

Regarding the trailer configuration, I've heard stories both ways about rollers and bunks. They weren't specific to the C25, but they were about similarly sized/weighted SK boats. Most seem to suggest that a sailboat's hull just really isn't designed for rollers, so bunks are better (distribute the load more evenly). I'm not really expecting to trailer the boat TOO often, but since it might wind up being my winter storage, it would make sense for me to pick something that wasn't going to potentially poke a hole in the side of the boat.

I've seen a trailer in my area that has a nice line of rollers along the keel's path, but I worry about the height of the bunks. The ones on the trailer just seem too low. I could always try to make something out of pressure treated 4x4's bolted to the trailer, but I worry about the 4x4's supporting the weight. Granted, the bunks really just help keep the boat stable - something like 80% of the weight is supposed to be on the keel, from what I've read. But still, if I hit a good bump, I'd like the bunks to be able to hold up. I also would need the supports to be the appropriate height; you can't exactly add height to a piece of wood.

Edited by - on

JimGo
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Response Posted - 09/27/2011 : 14:25:47

Dmpilc, thanks for the offer! That's very tempting. I think you're a bit far away, though, for it to be practical.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
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Response Posted - 09/27/2011 : 14:28:32

The 80% concept applies to fixed keel boats, not swingers. For a swinger, once on the trailer, the keel is lowered so that most of the weight of the keel is on the trailer's keel support board, not the bunks/rollers/pads.
A fixed keel boat, fin or wing, is supposed to rest primarily on the keel, with the pads/rollers/bunks supporting a much smaller percentage of the total boat/keel weight.
hope that helps.

Edited by - on

JimGo
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Response Posted - 09/27/2011 : 14:36:23

I think we were saying the same thing - most of the weight should be on the keel; the bunks are mostly used for lateral support.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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Response Posted - 09/27/2011 : 17:07:05

No, most of the swing keel's weight is supported on the trailer; all of the hull's weight is supported by the bunks or rollers. Sailboats or powerboats, it doesn't matter whether you have rollers or bunkboards. as long as they are set for the particular boat. I have 2 uprights on each side; each upright supports two sets of four rollers for eight inboard and eight outboard on each side - far more support than jackstands that nobody worries about. Proper boards do provide more distribution, but rollers are easier to load. Take your pick, they are both fine.

edit: actually, the rollers are paired so there are twice as many contact points, 64 total

Edited by - Dave5041 on 09/27/2011 18:37:26

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 09/27/2011 : 17:23:34

I will deliver it for a plane ticket and a few bevs.

Sten

Edited by - on

JimGo
Admiral

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Response Posted - 09/27/2011 : 17:36:57

LOL...sten, if you were a little closer, such that I could pick you up by car, I would be very tempted! Hmmm...I wonder if there are any "old salts" who would be interested in a late-season adventure with a novice boat owner...

Edited by - on

JimGo
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Response Posted - 09/27/2011 : 17:38:31

Thanks Dave. I'll need to go back and re-read what I read. You may be making a subtle point that I hadn't appreciated (and DavidP may have been trying to tell me the same thing).

Edited by - on

Voyager
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Response Posted - 09/27/2011 : 18:10:07

If you motorsail, be sure to create a trip plan including a chart of the area, times of tides and current for the dates you'll be travelling at each of the passages. It's a known fact that the ICW is extremely shallow in many parts of New Jersey. You should set up and enter all the relevant waypoints for your GPS, and mark the shoals so that you make your passages at high tide.
Check NOAA's Geogarage for charts (there's a website and an iPhone app) See http://demo.geogarage.com/noaa/
Tides and currents can be found on: http://tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/

What I recommend is to plan your actual trip on the chart. Assume you're starting on Oct 5 at 0600 and you are making about 4 kts. Chart your expected position and time+date on the chart for each hour or two-hour period for Oct 6, 7, 8, 9 - however long your calculations work out.

Prepare and chart out alternate routes if weather kicks up or if water levels are too low when you want to pass. Mark the LAT and LONG for each 2 hour or low water waypoint in your GPS ahead of your trip.

This way you can see in real time whether you're ahead or behind schedule. You'll have calculated your tides and current predictions for each point. Note that time of high and low tide is not the same as time of slack current. Use this as a base line when underway.

Because you can "figure" tides and currents based on 12:30 hour duration between successive tides, you can "reckon" what the actual tide will be like at the time that you pass.

If you do your planning a few days beforehand, you can also use NOAA's wind predictions to estimate whether you'll have headwinds, tailwinds, whether wind will oppose current (and create bad chop) or rain/thunder or currents may impede your way.

If you give me your exact dates, and your expected track, I should be able to work something up for you.

Edited by - on

JimGo
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Response Posted - 09/27/2011 : 18:27:55

Thanks Bruce! I have actually done something similar, but on paper. The expected dates of departure would be this Saturday, October 1, and I'll likely be following the intracoastal waterway between Forked River and Ocean City, NJ. When I looked through the charts, I only saw 2 or 3 areas that might cause problems. The boat is a swing keel, and my plan was to run with the keel up for the entire trip. Thus, I only need a little over 2' at low tide. If I leave around 10:00 AM on Saturday, the tide will be coming into Barnegat Bay. That means the tidal current will be against me, but from the comments above, it may not impact me too much, and I'll have the ability to use most of the bay. The trip down to the end of the bay is about 30 miles, so that's somewhere between a 6 and 8 hour sail, depending on the conditions and my average speed. Even at 8 hours, a 10:00 AM departure should get me in with enough daylight to dock "easily" at a marina. The only thing I'm not sure about is whether to assume I'll stop at a particular marina, or wait to see what's close by when I'm ready to knock off for the night. I'll be sure to take a few flashlights just in case, though. I can then leave early Sunday morning and stick to the ICW between Atlantic City and Ocean City. I haven't tried to map out the distance for that trip yet. If I went out to the ocean, it would be about 30 miles to the marina (at the South end of Peck Bay); I'm going to guesstimate it closer to 35 miles with all the twists and turns. I SHOULD be able to get an earlier start (since I'll probably sleep on the boat), and if I plan on an 8:00 AM departure, and if I'm wrong and it's more like 40 miles, I'll be at my new "home" marina before 6:00 PM sunday.

By the way, although I keep saying "I", the plan is to have someone else with me, and preferably someone with more sailing experience than me!

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 09/27/2011 : 18:43:45

Understood about the distance, plus I'm not available this weekend anyway. FYI, be aware that with the keel all the way up, there will be less of the keel "cap" up in the keel trunk, the boat will be a bit less stable (you may experience more sway) and you will likely hear more keel "klunk".
Good luck with the trip.

Perhaps a pic or 2 will help explain the weight distribution:

This is my SK on the trailer. Almost all of the weight of the keel is on the trailer frame via the board under the keel (disregard the smaller board - that was for painting the keel bottom), while virtually all of the boat weight, and some of the keel weight is on the trailer pads.

Edited by - dmpilc on 09/27/2011 18:59:37

pfduffy
Captain

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Response Posted - 09/27/2011 : 18:56:35

Jim - I keep my boat just north of Forked River. I am glad you are not considering the Barnegat Inlet. I've never made the trip down to OC and I will be very keenly interested how everything goes for you. Please keep a detailed log and be sure to post the story of your trip. Fair Winds!!

Edited by - on

JimGo
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Response Posted - 09/27/2011 : 19:04:00

Thanks Pat!

David, thank you, that was very helpful! I really wish you were local, that would make things very easy.

Edited by - JimGo on 09/27/2011 19:05:14

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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Response Posted - 09/27/2011 : 19:15:56

It sounds good except for the keel up part. The boat is very sluggish to the helm with the keel up and not nearly as stable. There is also the risk, since you don't know the age of the cable, of 30 - 40 miles of pounding precipitating a cable failure. The final reason to keep the keel down is so that you have recourse if you do ground. Being able to crank a few turns and back off a grounding is a real plus - at least that's what I've been told since an experienced sailor like me would never have faced that situation.

edit:If you ground, raise the keel part way only until you get to deeper water. Try to keep a few turns in reserve so you can get out if it continues to shoal.

Edited by - Dave5041 on 09/27/2011 19:21:38

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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Response Posted - 09/27/2011 : 19:37:27

I think we might be able to tap into a Mainsheet article here. Let me know if the deal is accepted and we can swap some emails about logs, writing, and photos. Buy a boat and see your name in print, what a deal!

Edited by - on

JimGo
Admiral

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Response Posted - 09/27/2011 : 19:39:22

Hmmm...good points Dave!

Edited by - on

redviking
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Response Posted - 09/28/2011 : 01:19:00

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimGo
 LOL...sten, if you were a little closer, such that I could pick you up by car, I would be very tempted! Hmmm...I wonder if there are any "old salts" who would be interested in a late-season adventure with a novice boat owner...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hey, I got paid $750 a day plus expenses to move that Oyster around, a Southwest rt and some beer is cheap.

Special newbie discount.

Have really good plotter big enough to eat off of and portable, epirb, and all sorts of other toys - will travel. Tampa to where?

Seriously, you should have a salt aboard, and a redhead named Pepper and I'll buy my own ticket.

sten

Edited by - redviking on 09/28/2011 01:23:55

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