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Bottom paint - do it yourself help

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cwstrang
1st Mate

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USA
78 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/19/2012 : 06:33:07

Guys:
Looking for some advice here on bottom painting.
What is the process, how long could it take, and best ablative paint.
Step 1. Outhaul and power wash
Step 2. Dry for how long? 24hrs, 48hrs?
Step 3. Sanding is it needed?
Step 4. 1st coat, brush or roller or both?
Step 5. Dry for how long?
Step 6. 2nd coat is it necessary?
Step 7. Move Jacks and paint.

Thanks in advance.
Craig

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 04/19/2012 : 10:40:11

As to brand of paint, check out what seems to work best in your area. Talk to your local experts. Two coats are generally considered normal, and some owners here recommend using a contrasting color for the first coat to make thin spots in the top coat easier to spot. Sanding is necessary, if nothing else than to get the old loose paint off and scuff up the surface for the new paint. Use 80 grit. Be careful to not sand into the barrier coat if your boat has one. Do you have ablative on the boat now? Is there any bottom paint on the boat now? If it is a hard finish paint, I would recommend staying with a hard finish.
Get ready for a really nasty project. For sanding, wear protective throw-away clothing, gloves, and a good respirator. If you want to minimize sanding dust, tape your orbital sander exhaust to the hose of a 5 gal. shop vac. Change the filter frequently.

Edited by - dmpilc on 04/19/2012 10:47:54

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 04/19/2012 : 13:27:59

Good advice from David above. I'll reiterate his question about the existing paint (if any). Do you know if you've got ablative or hard paint on the hull? Unless you're looking for a LOT of work, it's best to stay with what you've already got. It's easy to tell the difference, if you run your hand over the surface of the hull, ablative paint will come away on your hand, if it's a hard paint, you'll generally get nothing on your hand other than slime.

I had VC-17 on my boat when I got it, and made the mistake of leaving it on instead of stripping it off and putting on a biocide paint straight away. That ended up costing me a ton of time removing the old paint and subsequent marine growth (mussels & barnacles) to get back to the gelcoat with a soda blaster. I can't recommend the experience, it's nasty, time consuming, back breaking work. I've now got Pettit Trinidad SR on my hull (4 coats, three blue on top, and one red as the warning coat against the gel coat).

A hard paint won't stick to an ablative paint, but the converse can sometimes be true. You'll need to talk to the manufacturer of your new paint for their recommendations. If you know exactly what paint is on your hull currently, and you don't mind it's current characteristics, it's a simply choice to just use it again. But if you want to change from one type to another, there are lots of considerations.

My research showed this to be the best choice in paint for this area (Puget Sound in the mouth of a river), but yours may be something different even though you're relatively close. Talk to other folks in your marina as well as marine supply companies to get an idea what'll work best for you on the Columbia.

I recommend picking up Don Casey's book on painting a boat. Either "This Old Boat", or "Sailboat Refinishing". I believe This Old Boat contains several of his books, but don't quote me.

Specific answers to your questions in regards to my experience:

Step 1. Outhaul and power wash.
My hull required a lot more than a power wash could remove, although it was great for knocking the mussels off, it didn't touch the barnacles or "marine growth" (not sure what it was, looked like a lattice of lacy sugar candy, but tough to remove).

Step 2. Dry for how long? 24hrs, 48hrs?.
I think this depends on your boat, how long it's been in the water, and what the state of the paint is currently. If you're concerned about water, you can cut a gallon sized ziploc bag and tape it to the hull (after it's visibly dry), making sure it's well sealed all the way around and wait to see if you get condensation on the inside of the poly membrane. If so, give the boat another few days to dry. If you continue to have condensation, you may have a bigger problem.

Also, you might want to consider moving forward to the sanding portion because it'll help get rid of water in the paint if any. Plus it removes another barrier to the drying process.

Step 3. Sanding is it needed?
Yes*. Use 60-80 grit paper to give the next coat something to grab onto. David's suggestion of a shop vac attached to your sander is very-very good advice. A wipe down after you're done with a microfiber towel (Harbor Freight has them fairly cheaply) and lots of water will get the majority of the dust off. This is nasty-nasty work, the dust is going to get everywhere. Wear a respirator, facemask, old clothes or Tyvek suit to stay relatively clean. Be prepared to dig amazing things out of your nose even after wearing your respirator.

*If you're using VC-17 (and dry/day sailing your boat, meaning the hull isn't constantly in the water), you don't need to sand the surface if the paint is clean, you can just lay another layer down on top of the existing paint. I fell into this trap without considering the dry sailing portion. I can't recommend the experience.

Step 3a. Acetone wipe down.
You want to give the next coat it's best chance at sticking properly, an acetone wipe down will give you a nice clean surface. If you don't like acetone, alcohol will work nearly as well, and not as toxic. Wear proper breathing equipment in any case. You need to get all the sanding dust off, this is your last chance.

Step 4. 1st coat, brush or roller or both?
In my experience, both. I used brushes where I needed to be careful, like up against the waterline, and rollers pretty much everywhere else. I found that 3" rollers are more effective than 9" full sized rollers, just because you can never keep the length of a 9" roller on the hull, whereas you can with a 3". We used both foam and bristle brushes, and found that short napped rollers work better than long nap.

Step 5. Dry for how long?
Let the paint dry according to the manufacturer's specifications. Make sure any subsequent coats are applied within the time specified so you get a chemical bond between layers. This is time and temperature sensitive, so it pays to be very aware of your window.

Also be aware of "time to splash", the time after the paint has been applied before you must get the hull into the water. This may not apply to ablative paints, but it does to hard paints.

Step 6. 2nd coat is it necessary?
Yes, at least if you don't want to do this every year. I took a lot of time to get mine right, because I may be able to get 3-4 and possibly 5 years out of my latest paint job. I don't EVER want to have to soda blast my hull again. At least not the way I did it before.

Step 7. Move Jacks and paint.
I did this on my trailer and ended up scaring myself, so I've got six 1' square spots on my hull with no paint. I can live with that.

Edited by - delliottg on 04/19/2012 13:33:29

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3994 Posts

Response Posted - 04/19/2012 : 13:44:33

Ablative is the best if your in salt. The more copper content the better. My favorite is Pettit Ultra SR 60. It has 60% copper, Anti slime and is multi year but is @ $200+ per gal. You should get two coats out of a gal. Use a 3/8 nap roller.Get a few because they will get matted. Small brush for the areas you can't get with the roller. I did one side then the other side and by the time I got back to the front the first side was dry enough to apply the second coat but this will depend on the days temp. If you have Ablative on the boat already and it is smooth without chips then a light sanding or wipe down with acetone is all that is necessary. I go 2 seasons then Recoat. If you try to stretch it to 4-5 season you will pay the price in a nasty prep job.

Edited by - islander on 04/19/2012 13:58:23

cwstrang
1st Mate

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USA
78 Posts

Response Posted - 04/19/2012 : 14:43:19

Scott and David: Thanks for the advice. Three Bs had painted with ablative and strickly fresh water sailing for me. I called a local boat ride to find out the yard fee, turns out they have no water access and will charge me $300 each way just to get ito their yard. Another boat yard just up the channel will charge me $29.95 per foot for the whole package ( in and out, power wash, prep, and 2 coats of paint). I am thinking it might be worth it to go with a pro who has all the right tools and experience. Craig

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 04/19/2012 : 15:03:32

I think for $750 or so, it's worth having it done by them. Looking back on what I spent and the time invested, I'd have rather spent the money and been back in the water sooner. 20/20 hindsight.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3368 Posts

Response Posted - 04/20/2012 : 03:14:01

I remember the days that I used to sand and paint and no matter if I was upwind of sanding the bottom, blowing my nose always yielded a blue handkerchief. These days, most people use a face or nose mask and a sander with a vacuum option or attachment. Still, my preference would be to have the yard do the work, however, my bias toward this is also influenced due to I usually have my boat in all year-round and only would come out for the bottom painting and then after a week put right back in. In my area, having the boat in the maintenance yard for a week costs $200+ whether I do the work or they do the work. Each addl day, the cost goes up to approx $50/day since the Park Dept limits usable space the marina can use for keeping boats out of the water. The maintenance yard has room for perhaps 5 boats at a time and the boat dry storage areas have a longer wait list than the boats in the slips. This is the story at the Washington Sailing Marina which is on the VA side just south of Natl Reagan Airport. My marina is on the DC side and they have no dry storage or boat yard, so I have to sail over to for pressure washes or bottom painting.

I have been using ablative/copolymer paint. I get at least 4 years on a bottom painting using believe it's either Micron XT or Extra...probably Micron Extra...whichever one is the copolymer...and I pressure wash annually. We have only slime to contend with in the river but it can be a considerable slime coat if bottom is not protected adequately.)

Edited by - on

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2269 Posts

Response Posted - 04/20/2012 : 06:37:09

Pasted from another post of mine. This system vacuum has worked so well that I was able to take off my face mask, because it had absolutely no color on it (or my Tyvek coveralls) after a full day of sanding:

Quote:

...But if you are allowed to sand yourself, you want to capture the dust for your own safety (and to comply with EPA and OSHA standards). You can rent special sanders with vacuum systems, but I had good luck with my own gear last year. On a whim I bought [url="http://www.harborfreight.com/1-4-quarter-sheet-orbital-hand-sander-40070.html"]this cheap palm sander from Harbor Freight[/url], which had a nice vacuum interface:

<center>[url="http://www.harborfreight.com/1-4-quarter-sheet-orbital-hand-sander-40070.html"]

[/url]</center>

I figured that if it got too contaminated to reuse, I'd throw it away and buy a new one next time. I used my pre-existing Shop Vac with some filter bags that I bought from HF. The hard "wand" at the end of the Shop Vac made it awkward moving the sander, so I bought a 48" flexible pool filter hose with rubber tips:

<center>

</center>

This provided a great seal and lightweight flexibility as a coupler between the sander and Shop Vac.

The last thing I had sitting around was an old smart power strip with a "sensing" outlet that would turn on the other outlets when there was current draw. It's from the pre-Energy Star days when you'd need to manually turn your computer monitor off when you shut down your computer. It made things easier, because it would power the Shop Vac on and off automatically when I switched the sander on/off.

Edited by - on

hughbamford
Deckhand

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Australia
17 Posts

Response Posted - 05/01/2012 : 20:01:56

Hi All,

I'm about to become the proud owner of a new 250WK (#1007) I have been informed that I will have to bottom paint (anti foul) the yacht.
I've done this numerous times on my old yacht but does anyone have any tips on applying to the new clean hull?

Thanks,

Hugh Bamford

Edited by - on

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2269 Posts

Response Posted - 05/01/2012 : 20:19:00

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by hughbamford
 Hi All,

I'm about to become the proud owner of a new 250WK (#1007) I have been informed that I will have to bottom paint (anti foul) the yacht.
I've done this numerous times on my old yacht but does anyone have any tips on applying to the new clean hull?

Thanks,

Hugh Bamford
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Congratulations! I've never painted a virgin hull, so there may be others with better recommendations based on actual experience. I'm assuming that you plan to DIY.

From what I read, stripping off the wax from the mold release is critical - lots of solvent and many clean rags. Once your rag has wax in it, it will just spread it around.

My main reason for posting is to suggest (and get others' opinions on) the Interlux Sandless Primer. I believe that it could greatly increase the adhesion of anti-fouling paint to your hull without the need to sand, which could void your factory warranty. I used it this year to prime some spots that have repeatedly refused to accept paint - we'll see next fall if it worked. However, it is very nasty stuff (contains active isocyanates and aluminum flake). DO NOT SPRAY IT, and be sure to adequately protect your skin/eyes to avoid contact. There are also very specific directions for how long to let it dry before putting on the bottom paint - you may need to divide your hull into sections to do it. If I were painting a virgin hull, I'd consider using this product to promote good adhesion.

Your selection of bottom paint should depend on where you are located, and also whether you will leave it in the water all year, store it on land during the off-season, or keep it on a trailer after every sail (in which case you might not need any paint). Hard paints tend to lose their effectiveness if you let them dry for more than a couple of weeks. Pettit Vivid is one exception - it is a hard paint that can spend the off-season out of the water. That's why I chose it for my bottom paint. But it is more suited for fresh water than salt water, because its copper content is fairly low. Vivid is also available in white, which might be pretty cool for a brand new hull.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/02/2012 : 05:33:15

If I had a brand new, bare hull, I'd be tempted to apply a barrier coat.

Edited by - on

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2269 Posts

Response Posted - 05/02/2012 : 05:56:56

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 If I had a brand new, bare hull, I'd be tempted to apply a barrier coat.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I neglected to mention that because I had read that vinylester resins used in the newer boats eliminated the need for a barrier coat. This has been a significant improvement over the older boats that absolutely needed a barrier coat to prevent blisters. My boat has no barrier coat and has no blisters. It spends 6 months in the water each year, and has been in the water year round under a prior owner.

However, a barrier coat should be given careful consideration, since a virgin hull is your very best opportunity to do it. Does Catalina recommend a barrier coat on their new boats? If so, what kind? Epoxy? Vinylester? Something else?

Edited by - on

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 05/02/2012 : 17:19:41

Having been in your same predicament, I called Catalina to find out about the warranty and the reasons that would void it. Only one sanding the hull. They recommended the sandless primer no barrier coat and two coats of paint. As previously mentioned, the key is total wax removal. This simple job took three times as long as primer/paint, but it is the KEY!!!

Edited by - on

hughbamford
Deckhand

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Australia
17 Posts

Response Posted - 05/03/2012 : 20:43:07

Hi All,

Thanks for the feedback.

After your experinces and talking to others I feel I'm going to drop the cash and have it professionally done the first time around, don't really want to turn my new hull into a DIY nightmare.

Thanks again,

Hugh

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9014 Posts

Response Posted - 05/04/2012 : 07:16:26

As noted, the most critical step with an unpainted hull (even several years old) is thoroughly removing all traces of the mold release agent. Use a solvent intended for the purpose, and use it several times. If you're having it done professionally, make sure the pro agrees to do that. Otherwise, in a couple of years, your paint will start falling off in patches, whereupon things start getting ugly. (Look around a boatyard and you'll see what I mean.)

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 05/04/2012 07:17:40

cwstrang
1st Mate

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USA
78 Posts

Response Posted - 05/04/2012 : 13:29:50

Dave: I am living through a poorly prepared unpainted hull. When the boat yard began sanding my hull the paint started to flake off in sheets. They called me so I could see 1st hand. It was easy for me to get a fingernail under the paint and flick it off. They are now stripping the hull of paint (16 hours of work for an additional $1200.00). The boat yard speculates the 1st owner didn't do a good job in cleaning off the wax (mold release agent).

Craig

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9014 Posts

Response Posted - 05/04/2012 : 14:38:54

Uh-HUH.

Edited by - on

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 05/05/2012 : 17:46:09

Hugh, I did not mean to have you think getting the wax off was a daunting task, because it is not. It's just time consuming since it needs to be done two or three times. If you have the pro do it and they don't do it correctly you will be even worse off. I did my own since I have the availability of a D-I-Y marina and could take my time.

Edited by - on

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