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E15 update

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jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/30/2013 : 19:23:41

Saw this today, it is automotive focused, but it's worth reading...to be clear THIS IS NOT A POLITICAL COMMENTARY, JUST A STATUS REPORT

The fuel industry's American Petroleum Institute tested the 15 percent ethanol gas approved in 2010 and found it gums up fuel systems, prompts "check engine" lights to come on, and messes with fuel gauge readings.

"Failure of these components could result in breakdowns that leave consumers stranded on busy roads and highways," said the industry report. Worse: API said the fuel problems--not found in E5 or E10 blends--aren't always covered by auto warranties.

The industry prefers pure fuel to an ethanol mix, but the report isn't likely to slow the administrations green push, according to a Washington auto lobbyist.

The key points from the API report are below:

The additional E15 testing, completed this month, has identified an elevated incidence of fuel pump failures, fuel system component swelling, and impairment of fuel measurement systems in some of the vehicles tested. E15 could cause erratic and misleading fuel gauge readings or cause faulty check engine light illuminations. It also could cause critical components to break and stop fuel flow to the engine. Failure of these components could result in breakdowns that leave consumers stranded on busy roads and highways. Fuel system component problems did not develop in the CRC tests when either E10 or E0 was used. It is difficult to precisely calculate how many vehicles E15 could harm. That depends on how widely it is used and other factors. But, given the kinds of vehicles tested, it is safe to say that millions could be impacted.

In 2010 and 2011, EPA gave the green light to use E15 - the 15 percent ethanol gasoline blend - in model-year-2001-and-later cars and some other vehicles. EPA's action was irresponsible. EPA knew E15 vehicle testing was ongoing but decided not to wait for the results. Why did EPA move forward prematurely? Part of the answer may be the need to raise the permissible concentration level of ethanol so that greater volumes could be used, as required by the federal Renewable Fuel Standard. Most gasoline sold today is an E10 blend, but rising volume requirements under the law can't be met much longer without going to higher blends. When Congress passed the law, it could not know it was creating this problem. Today we know. The answer is to repeal the RFS before it puts millions of vehicles and many motorists at risk.

Jerry

Edited by - jerlim on 01/30/2013 19:24:46

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9017 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2013 : 20:35:41

Who is the author/publisher?

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 01/31/2013 : 03:45:03

This article has been reproduced all over the net. if you do a search for

"The fuel industry's American Petroleum Institute tested the 15 percent ethanol gas approved in 2010 and found it gums up fuel systems, prompts "check engine" lights to come on, and messes with fuel gauge readings."

in google you'll find at least 358 results where they have copied the article to some degree.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9017 Posts

Response Posted - 01/31/2013 : 08:15:06

That doesn't make the "article" legit. I'm not saying I agree or disagree, but it is written with some political as well as scientific assertions to support a strong editorial statement at the end. I don't give credence to articles floating around the web like that unless I know who wrote them.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 01/31/2013 08:33:32

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3754 Posts

Response Posted - 01/31/2013 : 22:59:59

The only things I found on the API website were a quoted public announcement and a review of a DOE study. The DOE study was lab based, not in vehicle, and used laboratory grade agents. Fuel "C" was a highly aromatic gasoline, not what you buy at the pump. It was blended with 5, 10, and 17% "aggressive" ethanol. The ethanol was made "aggressive" by adding "allowable" levels of water, salt, and dilute acetic and sulphuric acids. I'm not a fan of ethanol, b-methanol has none of its shortcomings and more energy to boot, but I can, and do, live with it. Again, no facilities are required to sell it. Upgrading delivery systems will be quite expensive for retailers for a limited, voluntary market. E-85 is also an approved blend for flex-fuel vehicles, but I have only found two stations that offer it along my 3 hour drive to the marina

Edited by - on

shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

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USA
1032 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2013 : 05:01:30

We have one E85 pump in 100 miles of my house... That one pump is on the turnpike. My Sliverado 2500 (my tow vehicle for the horses and the boat)... The truck does terrible on fuel.. but I wanted to "try it out."

That 1 pump was stacked right in with the rest of the pumps (on a busy day)... and it was open (and HEY I can use E85!)... drove over to it (with the horse trailer which is 35 feet long)... GUESS what? Pump doesn't have PAY AT PUMP, looked over at the register, line of 20 people! NO THANK YOU... so 55 foot rig, backed up, and blocking 2 other pumps because someone decided that e85 shouldn't be SELF-SERVE. Shame, it'd been very welcomed by me that day.

For the record though, gas prices were $3.83/gallon and e85 was $3.20... if the rumored "lower mpg" with flex fuel vehicles (and yes I know that isn't because of it being an inferior fuel, but that flex fuel vehicles aren't optimized for Ethanol) are true, I figured it'd cost me 10%-15% more.

This is why more people aren't using e85, at least in our area, it's tough to find, and it'll cost most people more to use.

I suspect most of that is supply/demand... If they make it, people will try it out, prices will fall. If they continue to make it a pain to get, people won't use it.

Edited by - shnool on 02/01/2013 05:03:56

Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1218 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2013 : 08:38:22

Although not as true today.....about 5 years ago there was a flood of E85 Flex Fuel trucks and vehicles around here. (DFW Metroplex)

I don't know if it was an attempt by the manufacturer to get enough vehicles into one market and test....or what....but for a couple years around here Flex Fuel vehicles were on every lot and you'd see a dozen or more of them out on the road when you're out driving around.

Problem was, there wasn't any E85 to be found anywhere. I never saw it added to any local stations. A few people I knew who bought a Flex Fuel had either never tried it (could not find E85) or tried it and hated it...because their mileage and power was significantly reduced....to the point where financially it wasn't worth it.

Now....really don't see them anymore.....

Edited by - Joe Diver on 02/01/2013 08:39:26

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3754 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2013 : 09:03:32

I have found that my fuel economy falls around 15-20% with E-85. The drop in mpg really is because ETOH has far less energy per pound than gasoline. I use it sometimes for the "green" benefit, but I would never use it for towing. It will never be cheap as long as it is made from corn, it is heavily subsidized to get to the current price point. My point in bringing it up was that it, like E-15, is what can happen in the marketplace when you have a product with marginal benefits, expensive mandatory upgrades to handle it, and a limited, voluntary customer base. E-15 really only exists because the ETOH industry dropped a ton of money on Washington. The biggest hurdle that b-methanol will face is the money lobby from the American Renewable Fuels Institute. ARFI is pronounced "ethanol subsidy".

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panhead1948
Captain

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345 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2013 : 10:16:38

I have a 2013 Ford Focus. It is flex fuel rated. Last Mon. I bought gas in IN. and E-85 was only 10 cents a gallon cheaper. The car had a window sticker telling what the difference in consumtion would be. I don't remember the exact numbers but they were not good. E-85 is going to have to come down alot more to make it worth while.

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shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

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USA
1032 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2013 : 15:14:26

Yep, have an Escape... but it didn't have both numbers... I would love to see someone make a car designed 100% for E85 and see how it does.

Edited by - on

panhead1948
Captain

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345 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2013 : 18:10:26

Looked up the numbers for my focus 26 to 19 city 36 to 20 highway gas vs E-85

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3754 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2013 : 19:50:31

Shnool, it won't help much to optimize an engine because a gallon of ETOH has about 76,000 BTU of energy vs gasoline at about 114,000. In a controlled lab environment you could possibly get 85% of the mileage of straight gas, but unconscious adjustments in your throttle foot to compensate for the reduced power would likely make it even less. 85% means nearly a 14% drop. I am already in the 15-20% range, but that, of course, is compared to E-10.

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Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5239 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2013 : 20:54:16

My Focus gets 37 mpg on my 100 mile round trip (all highway) driving between 60-65 mph using E-10.
If my mileage were to suddenly drop to 20 with only a 10c reduction in price, I'd avoid it like the plague. E-15 is not any more "green" than regular gasoline (takes a lot of energy to produce Ethanol), so the net is actually negative.
My wife has a 2000 Saab. I don't want her to purchase E-15 because with my luck the fuel system would likely fail.

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9017 Posts

Response Posted - 02/02/2013 : 08:43:57

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Voyager
 My wife has a 2000 Saab. I don't want her to purchase E-15 because with my luck the fuel system would likely fail.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Ya, these days you don't want anything to go wrong on that puppy!

Both ethanol and gasoline take energy to produce, but I recall reading that EtOH takes as much energy as it produces (or more). The irony is that E-10 does much the same to our fuel systems that we used to need additives like Dry Gas to do (in northern climes), transporting residual water harmlessly through the system to prevent iced up fuel lines. (When's the last time you had one of those?) One problem, especially in boats, older cars, and even gas stations, is when it does that too well--dissolving crud that's accumulated in the gas tank.

I have a hard time imagining widespread availability of E-15 as long as so many pre-2010 cars and trucks are on the road. Too much capital expense for too little return. We (some of us) just need to be wary of marina tanks being filled with E-15 that some hauler isn't able to unload on his gas station route. That could also be a reason to stay away from off-brand, cut-rate gas stations that buy the left-overs at discounts from haulers on their way back to the depot.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 02/02/2013 09:10:13

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5239 Posts

Response Posted - 02/02/2013 : 09:06:22

Dave --
She loves the car so I have to fix everything that goes wrong with it. Engine got oil sludge, coupla 500 hundred bucks to clean it out (cheap insurance), dashboard info display craps out regularly - have to fix that yearly, gotta watch tire inflation like a hawk, all the usual stuff.
I've offered to buy her a new car, but since 2013 Saabs are scarce as hen's teeth, she's not interested. Our mechanic drives an '89 sedan and he won't ever let it go.
I'd hate to imagine the damage E-15 would do to all those expensive little injector seals and O rings. Figure what you think it'll cost to fix and multiply by 3!

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9017 Posts

Response Posted - 02/02/2013 : 09:12:59

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Voyager
 I've offered to buy her a new car, but since 2013 Saabs are scarce as hen's teeth...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">...as are dealers, parts, and of course, customers. Too bad--GM really blew that brand!

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