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Marina BS... $25 contractor fee...

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redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/26/2013 : 21:59:19

Ok, so the marina I am at currently, just got sold. The new owners hired a management company that owns/operates a half dozen marinas. They just put up signs that says that outside contractors have to pay a $25 fee to work on boats. SO, my $1.50 a foot diver will now cost me $85 or more. They say this added charge is an industry standard, but they just kicked out all of the onsite contractors and just sent out a spam announcing that they are now offering services.

Has anyone ever heard of this?

Sten

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4275 Posts

Response Posted - 01/26/2013 : 22:47:18

I've never heard of it but if people don't complain or take action it's going to keep happening.

As an example no one made much of a fuss when airlines started charging to bring your luggage along on the flight. The next step was they started charging for earphones and peanuts. Now more companies are starting to nickle and dime us with extra fees for any and everything they think they can get away with.

If people would raise a ruckus instead of allowing these things to happen a lot of this stuff would stop.

The first thing I would do in your case is inform the marina management that you're moving out when your lease is up if they don't change their policy. Then I'd organize a committee of other boat owners and the contractors to let the owners know you're not happy. You might think about getting with boat owners at the other marinas that are affected to make it a mass stand against these fees.

If you get enough people complaining they WILL change their tune. Get the local news media involved so the word gets out. Contact BOAT US to see if they can help.

The only way this has become an "industry standard" (I think that is BS) is because everyone just accepted it even though they didn't like it.

A couple of years ago my marina started jacking up the rates substantially as your lease ended. They tried to go up $50/mth on me at one time. I raised hell and they backed it off to only $10.00/mth increase the 1st year and another $15/mth the next year. This was at the same time they had just completed rebuilding a big part of the marina with new floating docks after Hurricane Ike and at the same time the economy was really starting to slow down.

Apparently most of the others just packed up and moved on. In a matter of 3 months a mass exodus was in full swing. I'd venture to guess at lease 15 - 20% of the people were gone.

They are still trying to recover today. It's coming back slowly but they've had to make deep discounts on the new slips they had just completed because they were sitting mostly empty after a year.

I'm in one of those new floating slips and I have a 14' X 40' slip with finger piers on each side. The normal rate was well over $400/mth but they slashed the rate to $245/mth to get some kind of income going on their investment. There are still many empty slips that have NEVER been occupied in the new section and some docks in the old section that are substantially vacant.

I'm sure part of the exodus was due to the economy but here in the Houston area we didn't feel it near as bad as most of the rest of the country. I don't think it had that much to do with it. The other marinas in the area didn't have the exodus we did.

To get around the new fees charged to your diver, meet him at another marina that doesn't charge the fee or simply invite him along for an afternoon sail. Anchor a 100' outside the entrance to the marina and let him do his thing in full view of the marina office. Not a thing they can do about it. You're simply taking a friend out for a sail that happens to be bringing along his SCUBA tanks. If he just uses an electric compressor to supply his air, borrow a small generator to run it.

Edited by - GaryB on 01/26/2013 22:55:28

binky
Navigator

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USA
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Response Posted - 01/26/2013 : 22:53:20

Call a lawyer..rent/lease contract. Notify your diver that you stil want his service but he will be doing it anchored at the dock and not attached to the dock. Sounds like B/S to me.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Response Posted - 01/26/2013 : 23:00:21

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by binky
 Call a lawyer..rent/lease contract. Notify your diver that you still want his service but he will be doing it anchored at the dock and not attached to the dock. Sounds like B/S to me.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Even better to anchor at the dock than outside the marina entrance!

If you have to, pick him up at the nearest marina, bring him to your dock, and anchor. The marina doesn't own the water, just the land and the docks. The water is public use.

Edited by - GaryB on 01/26/2013 23:05:21

GaryB
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Response Posted - 01/26/2013 : 23:21:19

The more I've thought about this the more I'm beginning to think maybe the fee is fair. After all the marina owners own the property. Why should the outside contractors get to use their facilities for free? The marina owners have a substantial investment where the contractors have no investment (other than their tools/equipment) but can come onto the property and make money. Plus it's taking away money the marina could be making.

I just remembered, when I had my SeaRay on the lake the local marinas would not even allow outside contractors on the docks. In fact the boat owners were supposed to use the repair shop at the marina for all repairs. If I needed to do an oil change I just put the boat on the trailer and brought it home. Those that didn't have that option were screwed and had to pay the exorbitant hourly rates.

If you owned the marina and had all your money invested in it would you want outside companies coming on your property and using your facilities to make money you could have been making? I wouldn't. I'd have bought the facility to make money, not be generous!

If you think about it, it's no different than the vendors at the airport that run the coffee shops or news stands or the sunglass vendors at the mall with the little carts in the main mall area. They all pay a fee to the mall owners to use the mall owners space.

$25.00 seems pretty reasonable when you look at it from the above viewpoint.

Edited by - GaryB on 01/26/2013 23:34:26

hewebb
Admiral

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USA
761 Posts

Response Posted - 01/27/2013 : 06:30:05

I guess I am lucky as the marina I am at offers no service. If that were an issue I would probably relocate for maintenance if I had to hire it done. The lake I am on the marinas are owned by the same company. (Except the Boat Club) Moving means changing lakes-which I do sometimes anyway for short periods. If I had a power boat I would buy my fuel elsewhere.

There may be an issue with the insurance they chose that causes them to take that position.

Edited by - on

britinusa
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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 01/27/2013 : 06:39:45

Q. If the diver is servicing several boats in one day, does he have to pay the contractors fee for each boat, or does the boat owner have to pay the fee to have the contractor work on his boat?

Paul

Edited by - on

Tom Potter
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Response Posted - 01/27/2013 : 07:12:44

Yep, local boat yard/marina has a sign up that says contractors are not allowed to work on people's boats while in the marina unless they are "approved". I'm sure it's a liability issue. We have a very similar thing at work. Our contractors have to provide safety standards along with certificates of insurance. It's a lawsuit country now days, they are protecting themselves.

Edited by - Tom Potter on 01/27/2013 07:14:24

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 01/27/2013 : 07:14:08

I agree with GaryB. My marina offers maintenance and repair services, but allows outside contractors to work on the premises, but charges them a fee for any work done on the marina property. The marina owner has to pay his mortgage on the property and heavy equipment, as well as the mortgage on his own home, and he relies on the income from his repair and maintenance work to help do that. If outside contractors, who don't have to repay a marina mortgage, can significantly undercut his fees, he can't stay in business. I know it feels like you aren't getting anything in return for your $25., but it's a way the marina owner helps recoup his costs of staying in business. What you're getting in return for your $25. is a functioning and economically viable marina. If the overall cost of living in that marina is equal to or less than the overall cost of living in any other marina which offers comparable amenities and services, then it's probably a good deal.

Edited by - on

redviking
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Response Posted - 01/27/2013 : 07:15:41

I guess I should explain more for the uninitiated... I/we, my now ex wife, left Boston nearly 6 years ago to go cruising on our C&C 39. Bluewater, fully equipped. So, we were and now I am very conscious of rising costs. Marina's in general suck. We had a dock rat who was a known drunko become the "Dockmaster" at the Rivers Edge Marina in St. Augustine. Yeah, this guy was known to pass out and then climb onto other peoples boats. SO, what did they do? Make him the dockmaster. Shortly thereafter he climbed aboard a single females boat and passed out. Apparently the lack of personal hygiene and armpit shaving et al was enough for Paul.

Anyway, they didn't charge a fee nor did countless marinas we stayed at. Some did require insurance on the part of the subcontractor, which I respect, sort of, given that the stuffing box guy could in fact sink your boat.

So, in all of my travels, the worst thing that an outside contractor had to do was to provide proof of insurance. And in a couple of cases they didn't have it so I snuck them in so to speak. I personally think this is silly and it comes at a time when few of us can afford new and additional charges. This IS NOT what I bought into when I signed a one year lease in September. So I am pissed. Not to mention that they are trying to eliminate the "live aboards" of which I am not since I still travel back to Boston for business and am no there all of the time anyway. Anyhow, I understand their desire for revenue as I too have made payroll for 17 years, but enough is enough... It's a dock. I can anchor out, make my own power and dinghy in. I am essentially paying a convenience charge for the ability to step off my yacht and join the lubbers from time to time. I rarely use their facilities, so my only impact is when I wash my boat or fill my watertanks. The industry in my opinion is alienating the very people that make their existence possible. They all wanna make the marina's into big ass condo's, but that to got pinched. I used to the my wife that in 10 years you couldn't cruise, game over... Glad we jumped off when I was 42... SO, while I am in agreement that marina'a need to prosper, this is simply not the way to do it. I have seen many an empty marina, and I suspect I will see this happen here too. BS, it's a place to tie up. How does my refer guy impact the Marina? How do I know that their guy knows what he is doing? Looks to me like they are trying to create a monopoly. Anti trust laws should be applicable... Dunno, but I still say it sucks.

Sten

Edited by - on

redviking
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Response Posted - 01/27/2013 : 07:23:14

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by britinusa
 Q. If the diver is servicing several boats in one day, does he have to pay the contractors fee for each boat, or does the boat owner have to pay the fee to have the contractor work on his boat?

Paul
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

To be determined... Dunno... I suspect they will want it from each boat, but I could be wrong...

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
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Response Posted - 01/27/2013 : 08:03:54

The yard where I winter has a "contractor must check in policy" and the boatowner must notify the marina in advance. Contractor must also have $1,000.000.00 in liability insurance. If a boat owner elects to have their boat shrinkwrapped by an outside contractor, the marina charges a per foot fee.

When it comes to things like this, I always look at it from the perspective of the other guy. If I were a marina owner, how could I compete for say, shrinkwrap services, if the person I'm competing with was simply an owner/operator working for cash out of an old van with virtually zero overhead while I have to pay wages and benefits, taxes, insurance, and the other million of things required to run a business.

Edited by - on

britinusa
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Response Posted - 01/27/2013 : 08:25:12

Why on earth do facilities charge per foot for using an outside contractor?

Several of the marinas here charge a % of the value of materials brought into the yard to encourage purchase from the yard store, even if the store does not have the materials in stock eg. Bottom paint etc.

I understand the need to be profitable, but to take the N&D option only causes disgruntled patrons.

Paul

Edited by - on

awetmore
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USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 01/27/2013 : 09:19:54

I guess I'm glad to be in public (city-run) moorage with no services. There are yards on site, but they just rent space from the marina the same that I do, and there is no requirement (or benefit) to using them.

My previous moorage was just a pair of 100' docks behind a few small houses and had no services at all besides being cheap. That place was pretty great.

Edited by - on

islander
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Response Posted - 01/27/2013 : 09:50:44

Many Marinas have this policy, Welcome to the club.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Outside Contractors: No outside labor is permitted unless authorized by the marina. Outside contractor status is determined by the yard manager. The following conditions must be met:
•
Owners must notify Marina office prior to outside labor arrival
•
Subcontractors may only work in the yard during “normal” business hours.
•
The marina reserves the right to charge an hourly (15$) fee to compensate for use of our facilities and overhead.
•
Subcontractors must provide insurance certificates with Brewer’s Glen Cove named, showing coverage of at least two million dollars.
•
Subcontractors must show proof of Workmen’s Compensation insurance and valid Tax I.D. numbers.
•
Subcontractors must sign in and out at the marina office each day on the job.
•
Subcontractors must have MSDS forms available for all hazardous materials brought into the yard.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> How does my refer guy impact the Marina?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
What if your guy trips and hurts himself then sues the Marina? Its thier property and they are only protecting themselves. You have the right to take your boat elswere for services. There's more silly charges like a 1.5% enviromental fee charged to us for the winter haul and summer docking also no touching the bottom, Sanding,Painting ect. They have to do it or an outside contractor.

Edited by - islander on 01/27/2013 10:13:51

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Response Posted - 01/27/2013 : 10:04:22

Ok, guess I have been lucky then. Only one or two of the marinas I have been at have been owned or operated by a mega corporation... Whatever... Seems like a slap in the face to me and several other owners are pissed too. But what do we know?

Sten

Edited by - on

GaryB
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4275 Posts

Response Posted - 01/27/2013 : 10:46:41

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 1. This IS NOT what I bought into when I signed a one year lease in September. So I am pissed. Not to mention that they are trying to eliminate the "live aboards" of which I am not since I still travel back to Boston for business and am no there all of the time anyway. Anyhow, I understand their desire for revenue as I too have made payroll for 17 years, but enough is enough... It's a dock.

2. I can anchor out, make my own power and dinghy in. I am essentially paying a convenience charge for the ability to step off my yacht and join the lubbers from time to time. I rarely use their facilities, so my only impact is when I wash my boat or fill my water tanks.

3. SO, while I am in agreement that marina'a need to prosper, this is simply not the way to do it.

4. How does my refer guy impact the Marina? How do I know that their guy knows what he is doing?

5. Looks to me like they are trying to create a monopoly. Anti trust laws should be applicable... Dunno, but I still say it sucks.

Sten
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
1. You have 3 choices. Break your lease and tell the marina to pack sand on collecting the remaining part of the lease, try to get enough other boat owners to raise a protest, or deal with it and move on.

2. Anchor out day in and day out and don't use any of the facilities. After a couple of weeks the $25 might not seem so bad.

Besides, where 'ya gonna park your dinghy when you do come ashore? It won't be in my backyard.

You ARE paying a convenience charge. That's why marinas are built! Imagine if we didn't have any!

3. If this is not the right way to do it, what is? Higher slip fees for everybody, every month instead of a fee when and if you use an outside contractor that has no investment in the facilities?

4. You don't unless you research their guy and "qualify" or "approve" their guy on you own the same way you did when you started using "your" guy.

I would expect the marina owner would pre qualify their guy since they are on the line for the quality of work that's performed. The do want to make money and if they choose someone that does shoddy work they're going to be losing money on repair work shortly. Bad new spreads fast and they don't want to get a reputation.

5. To create a monopoly they would have to own every marina in the area and probably every repair shop.

You have other choices where to dock your boat and get your repair work done so they do not have a monopoly.

While I don't like it any more than anyone else I'd rather pay $25 when/if I need some repair work done that I can't perform on my own rather than have them raise the slip fees $25/mth every month whether I need work done or not. In 5 years, knock on wood, I've never had to hire anyone. Thanks in part to this forum!

I don't mean to sound hard saying what I said above but the bottom line is, these are the facts. At least the way I see them.

Edited by - GaryB on 01/27/2013 10:58:37

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9014 Posts

Response Posted - 01/27/2013 : 11:11:08

I agree with Don and Steve--if you're in a marina that is providing services, to do so they are making a payroll and providing facilities for those services, regardless (to an extent) of whether those services are utilized and produce revenue. Outside contractors (or at least some of them) will compete for that revenue. Your basic alternative is probably to select a "no-service" marina, or as you point out, anchor out so you're not paying for what you don't (or rarely) use, such as docks that allow you to visit with "lubbers."

I wouldn't call this an attempt to create a monopoly--it's a way of leveling the field and providing what many customers want: on-site services, while allowing outside contractors in. Currently, I only use a marina for winter storage, but I like that they can take care of the engine (with a Honda-certified mechanic), shrink-wrap the boat, and do other repairs if I need them. I'm not interested in shopping for reliable contractors for each specialty, and I trust the marina owner (who's become a friend) to keep good people on staff. But I know he has to pay them, whether I use them or not. I don't even know what the policy is there--I think it's prior approval only--but I would understand if he wanted some compensation for bringing a competitor into his facility. But I'm one of those old-fashioned guys who won't buy something from a web-only retailer if I've checked it out at a brick-and-mortar store where somebody can explain things to me. If we want services to be available to us when we need them, we need to pay for them.

I will say that the contractor has the opportunity to decide whether to pass the cost along or consider it a cost of having access to that marketplace. Maybe you should point that out to your bottom-washing guy (or others you might want to bring in).

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 01/27/2013 11:12:57

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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Response Posted - 01/27/2013 : 11:29:48

Be happy to have marinas if you choose to use them, there are options. With undeveloped waterfront going for $500,000 an acre on the FL panhandle in tough economic times, the temptation to sell out to a developer who will create a small "marina" and 7 high-rises with boutique shops is pretty great if an owner can't make a profit. Marinas charges definitely are"convenience fees". Nobody likes ATM fees either, but you are paying to not have to find some place to cash a check, not for the cost of the transaction.

Edited by - Dave5041 on 01/27/2013 11:37:00

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 01/27/2013 : 12:10:24

I consider myself blessed that my marina allows us to work on our own boats at no charge. Many marinas prohibit it.

Edited by - on

redviking
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Response Posted - 01/27/2013 : 13:08:47

OK, OK, OK... I suppose it's just the way of the future. What I don't like is how they kicked out all of the onsite contractors and then hired their own people. But business is business.

As far as landing my dink, there is by law rules that allow us cruisers access. I once went nearly 9 months without picking up a dock except for fuel. Newport RI, Annapolis, Wrightsville Beach, and a whole laundry list of places would be on my list of easy access dinghy landing points. All cruising guides do or should have access points for cruisers.

The marina I left last summer because of a horrible rat infestation did make contractors check in and leave their license before performing work, but even Marinas International, a company that runs and owns a lot of marinas did not charge an access fee.

Oh well, so be it... Like I said, before long, cruising will be next to impossible.

As far as marina's selling out to developers, yeah, that's what they and several marina's planned to do before the recession... Now they are all crying the blues because they paid too much for the waterfront property. I think this is a good issue for Boat US to address.

sten

Edited by - on

TCurran
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Response Posted - 01/27/2013 : 15:58:25

As someone whose been or still currently on all three sides of the issues, I understand the issues from all sides. As a "contractor" (I did marines canvas for eight years) I ran into places that either charged us or would not let us in because they had a preferred vendor. If the job was big enough I ate the charge, if not, I billed the boat owner. Sometimes the owner had to move the boat, at their expense, for me to work for them. Many boat owners, myself included, have our on preferred contractors, sometimes it's worth the extra money and/or hassle to know that you're getting quality work by someone you trust.

As the manager of a marina, even though I am somewhat insulated on an AFB, I see all the regulatory BS it takes to do anything on or near the water (try trimming mangroves). By hiring your own maintenance folks you have better control over what is used, how it's disposed of, and controls if something goes wrong (spills, etc). We have no onsite marine maintenance folks, my workers will assist, but not do. I am pushing back from the bosses who want to go to preferred venders, in our case one big advantage is base passing, but to me let the owner use who he wants and then it's up to the owner to get them on base. I don't charge contractors a fee.

Sten, you mentioned marinas selling to developers, that will be a problem again if the economy ever recovers. Marinas will either jack up prices or sell out. It is just too expensive and a big pain in the a$$ to run a marina because of all of the bureaucratic crap you have to put up with. It's just too tempting for a mom and pop marina to sell when a big developer flashes big bucks.

I remember doing work at Imperial Yacht Basin off of Gandy in Tampa for years, towards the end of the boom, they sold out, new owners tore the place down, put up a sales trailer and billboard, and the last time I went by still nothing just the trailer. That was a big marina, great access to the bay...gone.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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Response Posted - 01/27/2013 : 20:17:21

Florida at least has put some rules in place that help lessen the financial burden on "working waterfronts". The state also clarified the "live aboard" definition so local governments can't call a cruiser a "liveaboard" just because he doesn't have a landside address.

Edited by - Dave5041 on 01/27/2013 20:18:06

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 01/27/2013 : 21:05:50

I hate to say it, and it's probably politically slanted by somebody's measure, but as our economy recovers and the very wealthy become very-wealthier, as they are (you can look it up), marinas will tend to try to move up the food-chain to the high-service customers. They are the ones who are more likely to pay, To move up so, a marina might have to "piss off" some low-service customers who might be candidates for anchoring out and finding their own solutions to whatever problems they have, or find low/no-service marinas.

Happily, I'm not much affected... (yet.) I feel very fortunate! But I have empathy for the marina owner I know who is trying to offer services to his customers (including me) and has a payroll to meet.

Edited by - on

redviking
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Response Posted - 01/27/2013 : 22:33:30

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 I hate to say it, and it's probably politically slanted by somebody's measure, but as our economy recovers and the very wealthy become very-wealthier, as they are (you can look it up), marinas will tend to try to move up the food-chain to the high-service customers. They are the ones who are more likely to pay, To move up so, a marina might have to "piss off" some low-service customers who might be candidates for anchoring out and finding their own solutions to whatever problems they have, or find low/no-service marinas.

Happily, I'm not much affected... (yet.) I feel very fortunate! But I have empathy for the marina owner I know who is trying to offer services to his customers (including me) and has a payroll to meet.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yes, yes,yes... But I'm still a cruiser who will once again cut the lines and move on. Yes, we are a dying breed, literally. So, marinas that once upon a time welcomed us are wooing the weekend warrior. So sad...

Edited by - on

redeye
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Response Posted - 01/28/2013 : 04:47:57

<< marinas will tend to try to move up the food-chain to the high-service customers. >>

I grew up in an era when we were happy the paper mill ( St Joe ) owned most of the land around us in Florida and we always thought everything would be relatively undeveloped pulp land. Then they became Arvida Corp. Wiki That..

Developments like WaterColor that advertise bringing everyone "Old World Florida" while they were tearing away old Florida.

Suddenly were were, and are looking at Disney coming in and developing...

Here in Atlanta my local, family owned Marina was bought by a corp. a few years back and I'm expecting changes every day. Don't even ask how much money they are already making.

My last trip to "Old World Florida" had us docked between pilings to leave room for a 100+ foot mega yacht that took up the whole fuel dock.

I've now moved my power boat to a remote inland lake just to get away from it all and I'm hoping the alligators and chicken houses will keep them out!

Edited by - redeye on 01/28/2013 05:36:26

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