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Detail sander vs. random orbital

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Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/11/2003 : 11:31:36

Hello All,

This weekend I intend to start removing the brightwork on my C25 and begin sanding. Originally I was thinking a random orbital sander would be the best tool, but after seeing a detail sander at Sears, it seemed to me that the detail sander would offer better control, particularly when sanding the handholds on each side of the poptop.

I've never used either type of sander and will need to buy whatever it is I use. Before I buy one, can anyone confirm my suspician about the detail sander, or tell me why a random orbital would be better?

Thanks a lot!

Ben
Adventurous
#5553
C25 SR/SK

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5853 Posts

Response Posted - 02/11/2003 : 12:48:40

I remove my grabrails and hand-sand them, and I've never used a detail sander, but I think a detail sander would be preferable. An orbital sander removes too much material, which starts to weaken grabrails after a couple sandings.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 02/11/2003 : 13:27:37

Ben,

What is the current condition of your exterior teak,...old varnish, gray teak, oil,..etc?

I refinished my teak last year because it was in very poor conditon due to several years of neglect. The old nasty finish had a firm grip on the areas where is wasn't worn away, and in the areas were the finish was flaking away, the teak was weathered and dry.

I used a random orbital sander for the bulk of the sanding since most of the pieces are somewhat flat. The random orbital sander can be used on the rounded pieces like the tops of the handrails, but you must use a light touch and keep the sander constantly moving(up, down, side-to-side) to prevent sanding flat spots in the round wood. Additionally, as you learn how the orbital sander works, you can use a few techniques like angling the sander while using a lighter touch
to sand more difficult areas.
When the bulk of the wood was sanded with the orbital, I then used a Dremel with a flapper sanding wheel to get at the hard to reach places. This worked great in the hard to reach underside curved areas of the handrails, but again, a very light hand is essential because a Dremel with a flapper can really eat wood. Additionally, the front and back areas on the bases of the handrails are very tough to sand because it is end grain teak.

After the teak was cleaned up using both the orbital and Dremel, I did the finish sanding by hand followed up with a Cetol finish.

As far as your question concerning using a detail sander, I don't know how effective it would be. The detail sander I'm picturing is the one with the small triangular head where the sandpaper is attached that allows one to get in hard to reach places. This might be useful in doing finish work, but if you are removing old finish which clogs up sandpaper mighty quickly, you may spend more time changing sandpaper than actually sanding.

Just remember when you are sanding to use a light touch, because if you take too much off, it's hard to put it back on.

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
C25 SR/FK
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2cc32b3127cce92e981259d130000001010" border=0>
Cradled on the hard, 200ft from Lake Erie

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Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Response Posted - 02/11/2003 : 13:59:28

Thanks Steve and Don,

My brightwork has what appears to be old varnish that is worn in some places and flaking in others. Your input is much appreciated. Perhaps I'll just sand by hand.

Ben
Adventurous
#5553
C25 SR/SK

Edited by - on

markolito
1st Mate

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Italy
95 Posts

Response Posted - 02/11/2003 : 14:05:15

I used a regular sander I guess what you call a detail sander for most of the flat pieces and finished them all by hand. The grab rails i did all by hand. I removed all the laquer the PO had put and covered it all with 3 coats of cetol. The end result is amazing... There are not that many wooden pieces outside, so it's worth taking the time and doing it well.

good luck!

<img src="http://www.response-marketing.com/beta/plaa.jpg" border=0>
1980 SR/SK "Wet Pretzel"

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MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 02/11/2003 : 14:38:11

I have used belt sanders, 4" random orbit pad sanders, and a detail (triangular head) sander for various jobs. Belt sander is great for shapping, you need a steady hand and practice to keep from getting great gouges in the material and wouldnt suggest one for hand rails. The detail sander I have has not been of great use to me. They are designed to get into tight corners etc. I find it easier to hand sand using some sort of impliment to help. The impliment could be a pencil you wrap with sand paper. Another method to get a nice curve sander is to tape on sand paper, grit out, to the material. Rub a block of styrofoam on the paper to get the shape. Take the paper and put it in the new grooved foam and you have a sanding block built to the shape you want. I think the most versital sander is the simple 4" pad sander. It is great for many applications and is probably the one I use the most. If you dont have a bench sander I have taken my belt sander and fastened it upside down to the table top and made a bench sander that works well for small parts.

Matt/Brigitte Loeffler
E.C. Rider
Cat 25 86'
FK/SR _/)

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 02/11/2003 : 15:56:44

I've used the item below with great success. I've sanded the entire bottom of OJ twice with it. It has a soft pad which allows it to shape itself around curved profiles to some degree. It's commercial grade and is bulletproof.

http://www.porter-cable.com/cgi-bin/products.cgi?method=byid&prod_id=330

BTW, I use 80 grit on the teak to open up the grain.

Here's a loaded question; what you going to apply to your teak?

Edited by - OJ on 02/11/2003 16:19:17

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LeighMarie
Navigator

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USA
188 Posts

Response Posted - 02/11/2003 : 17:16:49

I got my 1985 SW, traditional interior C25 last year and did the same thing you did in taking off and refinishing all the woodwork on the boat. I have to say I enjoyed it, although it took a fair amount of time. I did it all with an orbital sander, and even though they talk about using a light touch, most of mine I had to really go at it to get all the old varnish off. I had to be careful that I didn't put swirls or uneven spots in the wood, but it took a lot to get it all down. It was quite flakey and grayed when I started so I had to go down to the wood on everything. I did hand sand the grabrail bottoms, but for the most part I did a lot with the orbital sander. It was nice to have a bit of a larger area to work with. The square one OJ identified would do it also. If the triangle on the detail sander is too small it would take forever on some parts of the wood.

Dave & Sharon on "Leigh-Marie"
Hull #5128

Edited by - on

Earl Landers
Navigator

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USA
157 Posts

Response Posted - 02/11/2003 : 19:19:00

I agree with Steve. A quarter sheet sander like the Porter-Cable will save you a ton of money for sand paper if you buy it by the 50 or more sheet box. I use a similar Makita which probably won't last as long as the P-C, but will outlast me.

Earl Landers
'83 C25 SR/SK
"Gentle Spirit"

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 02/11/2003 : 22:38:27

Heh heh.. I have an ARMADA of sanders... and use them all.

IMHO stuff follows.

Detail (triangular head)...(2) Skil, Craftsman. Great for corners, grooves and other 'small' areas. Against larger areas of well worn teak and layers of varnish, not much good. Specialty work.

Quarter sheet finish sanders (I have 3 of em) including one of those nice Porter Cables. (my favorite sander of this class) Very nice for intermediate work, but not as good when the going gets really tough... but with heavy grit paper will do the job with some patience.

5" Random Orbital (Bosch)... this is my main weapon. It is agile enough to get most spots without wearing you out. With heavy grit It will remove material in a hurry, but with light grit, and a light touch you can still do fairly delicate work. I use it for everything from refinishing teak to attacking rust on the boat trailer.

If you were going to take all my sanders away but one.. this is the one I'd keep. Most versatile.

Belt Sanders... (2) one stationary belt/disk (Delta) and one hand held. (Craftsman) These are the bad boys. The hand held belt is only good for flat surfaces... it is hard to control otherwise and it is not used much anymore since I got the 5" orbital.

I use the stationary belt/disc sander a LOT... with careful manipulation of the material, you can do very fast and delicate work at the same time. Using it, I completely prepared my badly weathered cabin top slides and both corner trims for refinishing in 20 minutes of so.

Also, for doing 'cabinet' work, it's a champ for producing carefully fitted surfaces.

If your teak isn't too bad.. the Porter Cable 1/4 sheet might be your ticket... if the teak is like mine and er... shall we say "well aged", and you have lots of other 'stuff' to refinish, I'd get a 5" random orbital.

Having the other sanders are icing on the cake. Which ever one you opt for, pay the extra 20% and get a quality tool and enjoy it.

CB - The 'tool fool'

Currently maintaining two holes in the water...'77 Venture 23 and new to the family,
'78 Catalina 25

Edited by - on

Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Response Posted - 02/12/2003 : 07:41:34

Thank you everyone for your input. To answer OJ's question, I'm not sure what I'm going to put on the teak when I'm finished sanding. I understand Cetol is a favorite among many people, so that's what I'll look at first.

I visited my boat yesterday to strategise how to begin removing the teak, and I ran into some difficulty. I started with the port side verticle piece on the companionway that is actually on inside when the hatch boards on are in place. It appeared to me that those interier pieces had to be removed first to give access to the screws that hold on the more weathered exterior pieces? Am I correct in this? Also, those interior pieces, as well as the exterior pieces, are glued on. I don't want to damage anything on the boat. If I can't remove the teak without damaging the boat, I might have to just sand by hand, carefully, while the teak remains in position on the boat.

Any thoughts?

Ben
Adventurous
#5553
C25 SR/SK

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Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1762 Posts

Response Posted - 02/12/2003 : 09:05:10

<font color=blue>I visited my boat yesterday to strategise how to begin removing the teak, and I ran into some difficulty. I started with the port side verticle piece on the companionway that is actually on inside when the hatch boards on are in place. It appeared to me that those interier pieces had to be removed first to give access to the screws that hold on the more weathered exterior pieces? Am I correct in this? Also, those interior pieces, as well as the exterior pieces, are glued on. I don't want to damage anything on the boat. If I can't remove the teak without damaging the boat, I might have to just sand by hand, carefully, while the teak remains in position on the boat.

Any thoughts?

Ben
Adventurous
#5553
C25 SR/SK
</font id=blue>

Hi Ben,

You're right about the teak trim around the companionway ... it's hard to remove if it has been sealed in place. I finally gave up trying to remove mine and refinished it without taking it off.

It wasn't that hard to sand and refinish in place, and in hindsight I'm glad I didn't try to manhandle the teak off and break it. If you use Cetol, it would be a good idea to use some tape around the pieces and keep a rag/paper towel handy for any spills ... Cetol is hard to remove from gelcoat after it dries.

No matter what techniques or varnish you decide to use, you will be amazed at how much better your boat looks after you've finished ... it's worth the effort. BTW, I used Cetol Light for the outside teak, and I'm real happy with it.

Good luck!

Buzz Maring, C-25 SK/SR #68, "Freya"
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3df23b3127cce9306a9b3abad0000001010" border=0>

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OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 02/12/2003 : 09:06:12

Ben,
I've never removed the companionway teak because (1) it's easily sanded and refinished while on the boat (2) there's caulking behind it to make it water tight and (3) the obstacles you mention above.
If the hand rails and sliding hatch rails are water tight you may want to leave them on - else I used a thinner putty knife to separate the teak from the cabin top.
Unless you have a real steady hand be sure to mask around the pieces you'll refinish on the boat - and apply sparingly where the masking ends else it will bleed under the tape. Cetol splatters easily and will only come off with abrasion.
Good luck.

ps Apparently Buzz and I are on the same schedule today <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> !

Edited by - OJ on 02/12/2003 09:08:46

Edited by - on

CatalinaGuy
1st Mate

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USA
55 Posts

Response Posted - 02/12/2003 : 22:26:37

Same for me - I refinish the companionway teak in place, but remove the handrails and hatch slides. I use a 5" Random orbit for pretty much everything, tricky bits and complex curves are best done by hand. I like the 8 hole sanders (e.g. DeWalt) because they suck the material away really well. Important when doing bottom sanding!

Doug Hibberd, 'Shiraz'
C25 SK/SR 1983
Austin, TX

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Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1889 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2003 : 05:40:03

<center><b>Removing Bedded Teak</b></center>

To loosen glued down teak trim, I used a thin flexible putty knife driven with a plastic mallet. When you go to rebed, remember how hard it was to get the parts off. I've used silicone sealer to bed teak, but even that can cure strong enough to risk breaking the wood when trying to remove it later. I'm thinking about trying that non-hardening window putty tape from the RV store we've discussed for the cabin portlights. Almost none of the teak trim needs to be really, really watertight except at the screws. I might use a bit of silicone on the screws themselves, and non-hardening bedding for the rest of the teak footprint. I much prefer having the option of removing the teak for refinishing.

-- Leon Sisson

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azcarlos2001
Deckhand

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USA
6 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2003 : 15:43:22

Hey everyone,

For whatever my two cents may be worth, I used a Porter Cable random orbit on all my exterior and interior brightwork. I simply used finer grits where I feared that the tool may get ahead of me. The end result can be seen at http://www.nicolealger.com/catalina25 A little handsanding in those tight to reach places finished off the preparation work. Five coats of cetol and 3-4 coats of spar varnish did the rest!

After one full year in the brutal AZ sun, they look as good as the day I reattached them.

Fair winds,
Carlos Peinado
Scottsdale, AZ

Edited by - azcarlos2001 on 02/13/2003 15:44:32

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Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Response Posted - 02/14/2003 : 07:34:38

Very nice woodwork, Carlos. Thanks for the link.

Ben
Adventurous
#5553
C25 SR/SK

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A Devries
Deckhand

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21 Posts

Response Posted - 02/15/2003 : 17:40:26

A high pressure sprayer can do wonders on dull grey wood. It cleans out all those hard to reach places and all those pits where sanding would remove too much wood. A sprayer around 2800 psi works just fine I imagine you could use one of those Do-It-Yourself car washes if your boat fit. When I refinished the wood on our boat the three companion way pieces where really uneven and looked awful I ran them through a thickness planner. About 3/32 was removed from the highest spots and they look like new. A sharp scraper will also do in hard to reach places followed by a light sanding. As for sanders my random obit sander would be one of the last tools I would ever give up as well. It works on everything.
Albert

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