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Too much rake?

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shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

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USA
1032 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/06/2014 : 10:28:52

I must have setup something differently last year... my 1st batten last year was shorter, this year the 1st batten (top, and was marked as "top") runs the lenght of the sail (luff to leach)...

Between that, and my tune, I've noticed now that the sail slaps the backstay during a tack... In light air the batten doesn't always "invert" to take shape to the sail (I have to pop the boom down some to make it invert)...

Have I added too much rake to the mast, and closed the angle off between mainsail and backstay? Is this normal, should I buy a "flicker?" I bet I never noticed it last year because I stupidly used a smaller batten in the pocket. I never felt like sail shape was poor, so I defer to the experts here on thoughts.

I measured rake to about 12-14 inches from the goose, using the halyard and weight method (backstay off)... I believe that is what the epsails tuning guide said.

Edited by - shnool on 06/06/2014 10:29:37

joearcht
Navigator

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USA
236 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2014 : 10:38:51

Your batten situation sounds like mine has always been. Light air will not invert the batten without my help. My sail is a North sail with no specs (they lost them). I'm convinced that my roach is larger than a stock mainsail as I've "always" had conflict with the backstay. I added more rake this season to the mast, maybe 1/4" to 1/2". I calculate my forestay is 31'-10 1/2" pin to pin. Backstay has a lot of slack in it so I can clear the top batten during tacks. So far in light to medium wind the boat seems very fast this season. Hope that helps.

Edited by - on

shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

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USA
1032 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2014 : 04:31:58

You know I don't FEEL fast this year... Last year I did. I tuned nearly identical to last year. I am nearly at max headstay, I can't tell you what that amounts to. I have the closed turnbuckle on there... and I have 3 new open turnbuckles available to me, I think I'll be changing out to it for the headstay before my first race, and perform a "retune." I have an epsails main, so I know he's got it at max roach to class rules. I also know I am max hoist, as the top of the head is RIGHT at the bottom of the black band.

But you might be on to something, I think my backstay is on harder than it needs to be. I know our 1st race will likely be a yawner... showing 5-7mph winds...

you only added 1/4" of rake? How in god's earth did you measure that? I ballpark by the inch... Bend, yeah, I can measure a small amount of bend.

Another question I have is, I know the tune guide from Harry at ep says, don't bother with a loos.... do you leave your aft lowers looser than your forward lowers? If so how loose? Do they flop a bit on the leeward side while beating upwind? The thought process was the aft lowers should allow the middle to bend forward when you crank on the backstay (and thus should take up the tension of the aft lowers).. I ask because I set that, but I might still be too tight... and when I'm 20 degrees or so, I have some wobble on the lowers on the leeward side (wasn't sure if that was bad or not).

Knotmeter isn't working now (just started that)... so I am using a GPS app on my phone, I'm less confident in it's numbers.

Edited by - on

joearcht
Navigator

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USA
236 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2014 : 06:30:46

John let me first admit openly that rig tuning has always been a head knocker for me. I don't clearly understand it, but I muddle through. With that said, I'll try to answer your questions.

First, I replaced my forestay with a roller furling set up this year. This setup required that i cut the forestay and permanently fix the length (no adjustment). I cut the forestay to exactly 31'-10" pin to pin (best I could, +/- 1/8") after the installation of the roller furling. This is a new forestay wire and I still have the old wire, but when exchanging the old wire out I loosened the turnbuckle so measuring what I had will not be possible. Now here is the tricky part, at the top of the mast is a "toggle". The furling was shipped with a new toggle to fit my boat (supposedly). I included the toggle in the pin to pin measurement. When I went to install the furling the new toggle would not fit, it was a bit too wide to fit between the flanges of the mast head. So I re-used the old toggle which happened to be 1/4" to 1/2" longer than the one I measured. Now you see how I came up with my forestay measurement. I know my rake is greater because I can tell from the back stay slack. I have not tried to measure the rake yet with a plumb bob, but before I made this change I'd set the forestay buy using the plumb bob and it was in the range of 12". I presume if I measure now I'm going to be over 12".
Now for the lower stays, I'm much more confused. I have the aft stays set to 17 on a small Loos gauge. I have had them set as high as 32. The forward stays are just hand tight, not much tension at all. I've always been confused by pre-bend and how to get it. My cap shrouds are set pretty tight , 35 on a large Loos gauge.
I'm on experimental ground here racing with the roller furling I think. My foresail maker cut the new genoa very flat. He wants me to let the mast relax forward in light wind to add curve to the genoa, then pull it on real tight for higher winds. We haven't discussed pre-bend at all. So, far that seems to be working. My North main is very old now and I'm due for a new one soon. I'm racing today in what will probably be very light winds again. Each day is a learning experience, we will see what happens next. Good luck to you!

Edited by - on

shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

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USA
1032 Posts

Response Posted - 07/05/2014 : 18:04:46

Quick answer, YES too much rake... I think I was at 14 inches of rake... I shortened forestay today, and lengthened backstay a bit, I also adjusted lowers, to that I have more swing in bend... Boat would not wipe out as quickly while powered up hard... we can get to 25 degrees of heel still now, and not round up (weather helm)... which is good... performance seemed pretty good too... It has weather helm, but it's lighter than before. On the outside, I can push 28 degrees of heel, and still throw the tiller down if I want. I still try to sail at 15 degrees or less of heel, but I want to be able to control the boat when +15mph gusts come (and they do on our lake)... dumping the mainsheet, or traveler in those conditions, don't always work.

I have more sailing to do tomorrow, but I think the boat is much better balanced. Oh and AWESOME sail today... Winds were 12-15, gusts to 30 today.. (MPH)... lots of whitecaps. Full up main, and full 135.. never dropped below 6 knots.. Perfect wind direction, 1 tack up (close reach), broad reach back... LOADS of fun. Temp 79 degrees, 20% humidity, partial cloud cover, water temp 73. Does NOT get much better than that!

Oh, and my ST1000+ broke the compass, or rather the compass holder. I ordered a replacement via ebay ($94, with $14 shipping from the UK)... got it today, tore apart the TP, and installed the new compass (which was a pretty involved repair)... but anyway, got it all back together, and it works flawlessly... VERY cool.

Edited by - shnool on 07/05/2014 18:07:31

usa 63
1st Mate

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USA
42 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2014 : 06:44:15

We adjust the forestay a lot on my boat. We have the ronstan calibrated turn buckle that gives about 5" of adjustment and allows you know where to set up. We had the 31' 10" measurement in the middle, and we shorten as the wind builds and lengthen if it's really light. Helm is the major indicator if we are to long or short. The other nice thing about this setup is the fact that as you shorten you bring the center of effort forward reducing helm, and tighten the upper shrouds. We normally set the boat up for the day at the dock and only change if something doesn't feel right, or there is a huge wind change.

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