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Is an adjustable back stay adjusted often?

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Erik Cornelison
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USA
194 Posts

Initially Posted - 12/15/2017 : 16:14:23

Hi - just purchased a 1986 Catalina 25, #5234, standard rig, swing keel.

I'm going up purchase new standing rigging, the boat currently has a non-adjustable back stay, I think its called a split back stay.

The decision I need to make is should I stay with a non-adjustable back stay or upgrade to a adjustable back stay?

I saw there are two types of backstays, which do you prefer and why?

All the sailing I've done before, most of the boats did not have back stay's at all (Hobbie Cats, Sunfish, Windsurfers, 28' Pearson, 23' Dutchcraft) so I don't know how much I will play with it. I do understand why and how they work. Boat sailed in Colorado and Utah, with a trip to Catalina Island in the works.

Boat has a trailer, but the plan for 2018 is haul to a lake and keep on a mooring or at the marina with minimal mast stepping and setup.

Erik

Erik Cornelison
6th Generation Professional Sailor, First Gen Submarine Sailor.
1986 Standard Rig SW. #5234

SKS
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161 Posts

Response Posted - 12/15/2017 : 17:03:44

I'll be honest, I never adjust mine.
I'm not into performance sailing.
I realize that you can get better performance by tuning your rigging, and that tune will be different depending on the wind conditions and point of sail.
I don't care.
I'm just out having fun.
So it depends on your goals.
If you're racing, then I'd say yes, get the adjustable back stay.
If, like me, you're more interested in spending quality time with your companion, then fiddling with the rigging takes away from the time you have available for cuddling.

Just my opinion. I could be wrong, and I'm sure someone on this forum will let me know if I am.

"Lady E" 1986 Catalina 25: Fin Keel, Standard Rig, Inboard M12 Diesel, Sail No. 5339
Sailing out of Norwalk Cove Marina, Connecticut

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5851 Posts

Response Posted - 12/15/2017 : 17:48:03

If you love to play with sail trim, you'll love a backstay adjuster, but you have to know (1) how to tune a masthead rig with an adjustable backstay, and then (2) how to use it.

A C25 has a masthead rig and, unlike a fractional rig, a backstay adjuster doesn't bend the mast. A backstay adjuster on a frac. rig bends the mast, which pulls the sailcloth in the middle of the sail forward, and that lets the boat point a little higher in stronger winds by flattening the middle part of the sail, which depowers the sail.

A backstay adjuster on a masthead rig works completely differently. It doesn't help the boat point significantly higher to windward. (OK, maybe a little, but very little.) What it really does is it lets you ease off the tension on the backstay. That creates a great deal of sag in the forestay. When you're sailing off the wind or downwind or in light air, it powers up the mainsail and increases your speed off the wind.

When you tune the rig on a masthead rig boat with a backstay adjuster, you set the backstay adjuster as if it is fully tensioned. Then you tune the rig in the same way you would tune a rig with a fixed backstay, but you must leave the aft lowers loose. Then, when you ease the backstay adjuster, the rig will tilt forward, causing lots of forestay sag.

I think of the backstay adjuster as a very quick way to power up the rig, as needed. In light air, I might ease it just a wee bit to power up the rig sailing to windward or when sailing to windward at a point of sail short of closehauled. But, whenever I round a windward mark to sail deep downwind, I always ease the backstay adjuster way off, so much that the forestay has a considerable catenary curve. When you turn back to windward, you have to remember to tension the backstay again.

One caution. With a masthead rig, there's no benefit to be gained by overtensioning the backstay adjuster. It won't make the boat point higher to windward, and it can damage the boat structurally.

(Since I don't have a significant other to cuddle at this time, I prefer to play with my backstay adjuster.

)

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Edited by - Steve Milby on 12/15/2017 19:11:36

BKPC25
1st Mate

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74 Posts

Response Posted - 12/15/2017 : 18:04:41

Even if you don't plan to adjust your backstage one day you might...
Thus better of doing the right thing and get an adjustable one.
CD sells them or look around for a used one.
I have seen a really nice one that was much simpler than what CD sells but was more expensive.

1973 C22 #1803 "Baby Adalynne"
(1979 C25 #1389 "Adalynne")
Instagram: #sailingadalynne
https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCQCd-egRgoAJi6fUvgEvI_A
Lake Travis, Austin, TX

glivs
Admiral

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822 Posts

Response Posted - 12/15/2017 : 21:13:42

So Steve....so what does your tuning mean if planning to install a roller furler?

Gerry & Leslie; Malletts Bay, VT
"Great Escape" 1989 C-25 SR/WK #5972

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5851 Posts

Response Posted - 12/16/2017 : 06:10:00

quote:
Originally posted by glivs

So Steve....so what does your tuning mean if planning to install a roller furler?

The general purposes of rig tuning are: (1) To firm up the rig so that it supports the sails so that you can shape the sails correctly. (If, for example, the forestay is too loose, the sail can't be depowered enough in strong winds, and the sail won't present a clean entry to the wind, enabling the boat to point well.) (2) To adjust the center of effort of the sailplan so that the amount of force exerted on the sails forward of the center of lateral resistance are balanced properly against the amount of force exerted on the sails aft of the center of lateral resistance, so that the boat has just the ideal amount of weather helm without causing the rudder to produce excess drag to hold the boat on course.

Those goals of rig tuning are exactly the same, regardless of whether or not the boat has a furler, or whether it has a backstay adjuster.

The only difference in tuning a rig with a furler is that you should leave the forestay tension about 1/2 turn of the turnbuckle looser. The reason is that, if the forestay is too taut, it can impede the ability of the furler to turn freely, especially if it doesn't have ball bearings, preventing it from working smoothly and wearing it out prematurely. The forestay should be as taut as it can be while still allowing the furler to turn freely.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Edited by - Steve Milby on 12/16/2017 06:13:12

glivs
Admiral

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Response Posted - 12/17/2017 : 08:11:52

Thanks for the feedback. I have been happy with the tuning of my rig with hank on sails - the boat handles well. I would like to point a little better but my sails are showing their age. However I'm moving to a roller furler this next season and have more questions than answers right now. I think I understand but was not sure how to interpret:

quote:
ease the backstay adjuster way off, so much that the forestay has a considerable catenary curve.

AND

quote:
The forestay should be as taut as it can be while still allowing the furler to turn freely.

I have not sailed with a furler so I was concerned "catenary curve" might impact the foil or functioning of the furler...I assume now my concern was misplaced...

Gerry & Leslie; Malletts Bay, VT
"Great Escape" 1989 C-25 SR/WK #5972

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5851 Posts

Response Posted - 12/17/2017 : 09:27:21

A foil stiffens the forestay a little, but it still flexes enough to permit a much fuller curve in the forestay when the backstay adjuster is eased. Even slacking the forestay a little increases your boat speed downwind and in light air fairly significantly. If you're next to another boat when you ease the backstay and he doesn't, you can see the speed increase.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

odonnellryanc
Navigator

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108 Posts

Response Posted - 12/17/2017 : 16:42:46

For what it is worth, I was told by riggers that if you want to go an adjusted backstay route on a small boat like ours, it would be fine to use bullet blocks (instead of wire blocks or more expensive hardware) with a simplified version of this: http://www.harken.com/uploadedImages/Tech_Corner/Deck_Layouts/One_Design/j80-mainsheet-backstay-lg.gif?n=3492

This is basically what I plan on doing on my boat.

BKPC25
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 12/17/2017 : 17:57:20

https://stingysailor.com/2017/08/12/upgrade-your-rig-with-a-diy-adjustable-backstay/
This is a really good read and the block and tackle rigging system is neater and easier to adjust than the original one.

1973 C22 #1803 "Baby Adalynne"
(1979 C25 #1389 "Adalynne")
Instagram: #sailingadalynne
https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCQCd-egRgoAJi6fUvgEvI_A
Lake Travis, Austin, TX

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5851 Posts

Response Posted - 12/17/2017 : 18:21:15

The factory stock backstay adjuster has more than enough mechanical advantage to do the job on a C25.

The system on my Cal 25 is very similar to the one shown by Ryan.

I have seen people put backstay adjuster systems on their 25' boats that are way more powerful than they need to be. A more powerful adjuster won't make your boat foot faster or point higher. It will only damage your boat structurally. There's a point of diminishing returns. Beyond that point, the boat's performance can't be improved, no matter how much force you exert on the backstay. That point can easily be reached and exceeded with a factory adjuster.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

dasreboot
Admiral

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803 Posts

Response Posted - 12/19/2017 : 05:02:11

Her is mine. I doubt could overpower the rig adjusting this by hand. maybe if i led it to a winch. I could put way more tension on it with a turnbuckle. the only downside is it is not failsafe. If the old system fails, the rig stays up, albeit loosely. this system fails completely. I've thought about a safety line to catch it if that should happen. The reason i did this is mostly because I could. I already had all the parts lying around, so the only cost was the amsteel.

Todd Lewis
Eowyn 87 TR/WK C25 #5656
ARWEN 84 TR/SK C25 #4031
www.mainsailsailingschool.com

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5851 Posts

Response Posted - 12/19/2017 : 06:06:45

The purpose of a backstay adjuster on a masthead-rigged boat is to power up the jib by creating forestay sag when sailing in light air and downwind. Unlike a backstay adjuster on a fractional-rigged boat, it doesn't bend the mast or shape the mainsail in any significant way. When you sail downwind, you ease the backstay and induce forestay sag and that powers up the jib. When you turn back to windward, you re-tension the forestay to remove the sag, but you don't want to remove all forestay sag.

Sailmakers design jibs with the expectation that there will be a certain amount of forestay sag, and they design jibs so that the leading edge will have the optimal luff curve within the designed windspeed range of the sail. It's entirely possible to overtrim a genoa, flattening it too much. Overtrimming it takes the vector of it's power away from it that drives the boat forward.

When the boat is in it's slip, set your backstay adjuster to the tension that you think will be optimal for sailing closehauled. Then step to the forestay and tug on it. If you can't defect it, it's too tight. It shouldn't be bar tight. I would estimate that it should deflect about 1" without having to pull really hard on it. This is one place where a Loos gauge can be useful. You can check the forestay tension to be sure it isn't greater than specified for the size of the wire. After you establish that optimal setting, that's the setting that you should use for the backstay adjuster when sailing closehauled. That setting will optimize the boat's windward performance.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Erik Cornelison
Navigator

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194 Posts

Response Posted - 12/21/2017 : 16:36:06

Thanks - I think from the replies I'll get an adjustable back stay.

Erik Cornelison
6th Generation Professional Sailor, First Gen Submarine Sailor.
1986 Standard Rig SW. #5234

BKPC25
1st Mate

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74 Posts

Response Posted - 12/22/2017 : 01:15:26

The original adjuster has a wire rope bridal and a 4:1 MA (mechanical adventage) block and tackle. The bridal is at a set length in case the line fails or is not locked off it still stays rigged so the mast cannot fall forward.
As Todd mentioned on his 8:1MA complex pulley system...if you choose that route you will need a hard rigged back up. Todd's look really clean.

1973 C22 #1803 "Baby Adalynne"
(1979 C25 #1389 "Adalynne")
Instagram: #sailingadalynne
https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCQCd-egRgoAJi6fUvgEvI_A
Lake Travis, Austin, TX

Erik Cornelison
Navigator

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USA
194 Posts

Response Posted - 12/23/2017 : 10:53:17

quote:
Originally posted by dasreboot

Her is mine. I doubt could overpower the rig adjusting this by hand. maybe if i led it to a winch. I could put way more tension on it with a turnbuckle. the only downside is it is not failsafe. If the old system fails, the rig stays up, albeit loosely. this system fails completely. I've thought about a safety line to catch it if that should happen. The reason i did this is mostly because I could. I already had all the parts lying around, so the only cost was the amsteel.

That setup would bother me with the potential of a single point failure. That line breaks and down comes the mast. I�m sure it fine for easy sailing, but I�m a former submarine sailor and FAA pilot and I like ...LOVE backup systems.

Erik Cornelison
6th Generation Professional Sailor, First Gen Submarine Sailor.
1986 Standard Rig SW. #5234

dasreboot
Admiral

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803 Posts

Response Posted - 12/27/2017 : 04:15:29

quote:

That setup would bother me with the potential of a single point failure. That line breaks and down comes the mast. I�m sure it fine for easy sailing, but I�m a former submarine sailor and FAA pilot and I like ...LOVE backup systems.

yeah that is an issue with this type. I have considered adding a safety line for it, just an extra piece of 3/8 amsteel. So far the only safety line is the flag halyard, which i dont think is going to hold up in case of failure!

Todd Lewis
Eowyn 87 TR/WK C25 #5656
ARWEN 84 TR/SK C25 #4031
www.mainsailsailingschool.com

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 12/27/2017 : 05:39:16

What if it's the forestay that breaks, instead of the backstay? Perhaps you should also rig a back-up for the forestay. What about the upper shroud? It doesn't have a backup in case it breaks. Maybe it needs one.

You can drive yourself crazy worrying about all the "what ifs." The standing rigging system was engineered by experts who were well aware of the risks of civil litigation and liability, and the system has been tested by nearly 7,000 boats over 40 years.

The plain fact is that the system doesn't fail if it's properly maintained. Your time and money would be better spent inspecting the stays and attachments each year and replacing them as needed, instead of trying to figure out how to back up one element of it.

If you were planning to sail it across the Atlantic or around the world, there might be a better argument for thinking about back ups, but not for a coastal cruiser and lake sailer. Thousands of C25s were built without adjustable backstays, and none of those boats have any kind of back up for the single backstay cable.

There's no harm in thinking about it, but it's hard to rationally justify spending much time or money to do it.

If you want to add a backstay adjuster for it's own sake, that's great. You'll enjoy it. But having a back up for the backstay shouldn't be a significant concern. The reasons that justify back up systems for commercial aircraft don't really apply to recreational lake sailboats.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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3368 Posts

Response Posted - 12/27/2017 : 08:04:37

Agree with Steve.

By the way, interesting trivia/factoid or whatever you make of it:

Many years ago, there was a guy on our forum that posted a photo of his Cat25 with the first foot of the bow/fiberglass deck ripped up at a 45 degree angle. While the photo and story was of interest, I noted the background and inquired if he was at a neighborhood marina - Washington Sailing marina just south of Natl Reagan Airport and... that turned out to be the case. In my neck of the woods/Potomac river !

Anyway, his boat just had maintenance performed and had to be travel arm lifted back to the water. The main travel arm operator was out that day and so the assistant was lifting the boat off it's supports. The boat slipped while in the slings and the forestay hit the travel arm. This was an earlier vintage CAT25 believe from the 70s. Anyway, as far as the strength of the forestay which you would have thought would be the weak link, it held. The deck ripped up ! With the first foot of the deck ripped up at approximately a 45 degree angle, it looked like "Jaws" if you used your imagination. An unbelievable damage point for the boat. The marina had it assessed and that area is such a structural necessity and given the age of the boat, the boat was considered a total loss. The marina decided to pay the boat owner not using their insurance and obviously refunded the boat owner, the cost of whatever maintenance they were performing. The boat owner then bought a Dory 25 mini-pilot boat and kept it for a couple of years over at my marina on the DC side of the river - James Creek Marina. I believe he then gave up boating or at least left and did not come back.

Who would have thought that his forestay would have held up to the stress to the degree that the decking would rip up ? I do not believe the stays were new and may have been original. This was perhaps 8 years or so ago.

Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Quantico, Va
http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html

Lee Panza
Captain

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USA
465 Posts

Response Posted - 12/27/2017 : 12:29:18

I'm sure you guys remember the picture of a Cat25 hanging from a drawbridge, after it got too close as the bridge was opening. It was snagged near the top of the mast, IIRC, and whichever cable it was that got hooked (I think it was the forestay) was able to support the entire weight of the boat. That was quite an image!

The trouble with a destination - any destination, really - is that it interrupts The Journey.

Lee Panza
SR/SK #2134
San Francisco Bay
(Brisbane, CA)

dalelargent
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198 Posts

Response Posted - 12/27/2017 : 20:52:12

FWIW, I do �back-up� the forestay by securing the spinnaker halyard to the bow with very slight tension. I simply leave it there (unless in use) and figure it just might save my rig while I urgently drop sail if the forestay should ever blow. It seems to me as well that the other side shrouds would help (while I drop sail) if an upper shroud fails. Possibly correct?

1989 c25 WK/TR #5838
1998 Catalina 36 mkii
1983 Vagabond 14

dasreboot
Admiral

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803 Posts

Response Posted - 12/28/2017 : 10:24:36

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Milby

What if it's the forestay that breaks, instead of the backstay?

I do have one! the spinnaker halyard remains tied off to the pulpit.

Than reminds me of the macgregor sailor at my marina who had a forestay failure last season . For this season he kept his mast raising system (the best part of the mac 26) permanently connected, and just motored around all season. You know, the Mac sailors tell me how great they are, but that is the second catastrophic rig failure I've heard of on them.

Todd Lewis
Eowyn 87 TR/WK C25 #5656
ARWEN 84 TR/SK C25 #4031
www.mainsailsailingschool.com

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5851 Posts

Response Posted - 12/28/2017 : 11:57:05

I saw a McGregor mast fall many years ago, but the hardware didn't break. A turnbuckle backed out completely, so it was a matter of careless maintenance.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9014 Posts

Response Posted - 12/28/2017 : 21:43:23

I watched as a Hunter, with its backstay-less B&R rig, backed out of its slip, tipped a little, and caught a shroud on a piling. The mast snapped in half and then down it came. I like backstays! (Upon close inspection, the Hunder mast extrusion looked to me like a very tall Coors can.)

The damage on the C-25 bow Larry describes was on an early boat that didn't have the upgraded stem fitting that my '85 had from the factory. CD sells the upgrade (with or without anchor roller), which has a tang that extends down the bow about 6" and is thru-bolted there. The earlier stem fitting that anchors the forestay was only thru-bolted to the deck. (RIP!!) I'd bet the upgrade would not have pulled up--something else (the stay, the mast, or the mast step) would have broken or torn loose first.

Look around at all of the sailboats on your body of water... The C-25 has one of the most robust rigs relative to its size and sail plan of all of them. (...especially if it has the upgraded stem fitting.

)

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 12/28/2017 21:47:23

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