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15 mph winds, stromjib, one reef, rudder questions

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BKPC25
1st Mate

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USA
74 Posts

Initially Posted - 12/26/2017 : 10:38:14

Went out two days ago on Lake Travis with my son.
15mph winds, nobody out on the lake. Hoisted the storm jib and reefer in for the first time.
I had to lower the aft end of the boom to try to keep the main as flat as possible when close hauling. It seems like the leech on the main should have the reef point higher, because the boom was drooping too low. Any suggestions on this? I am planning to sew a second grommet/reef point to help this issue. I have been sewing/fixing my sails with my Sailrite LSZ1, so that is not an issue.
Also, when coming about the storm jib had too much power and my rudder couldn't keep up thus while tacking from close hauling to clause hauling we would be pushed to a beam reach then we would have to steer back to close hauling.
1. Maybe I shouldn't have reefer in?
2. I need a longer rudder? Mine is 65.5"�14" which I have built, see previous discussion about "need a new rudder". The rough weather/blue water rudder is 72-78" long.
With all this said we have had a blast!
Happy New Year to all!
If you are on Instagram you can see pix of the day #sailingadalynne

1973 C22 #1803 "Baby Adalynne"
(1979 C25 #1389 "Adalynne")
Instagram: #sailingadalynne
https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCQCd-egRgoAJi6fUvgEvI_A
Lake Travis, Austin, TX

Edited by - BKPC25 on 12/26/2017 10:41:02

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5853 Posts

Response Posted - 12/26/2017 : 11:31:08

quote:
Originally posted by BKPC25

Went out two days ago on Lake Travis with my son.
15mph winds, nobody out on the lake. Hoisted the storm jib and reefer in for the first time.
I had to lower the aft end of the boom to try to keep the main as flat as possible when close hauling.

I don't understand that. What was holding the aft end of the boom up? Nothing should have been.

quote:
It seems like the leech on the main should have the reef point higher, because the boom was drooping too low. Any suggestions on this?

Is your boat a standard rig or tall rig? The boom on a tall rig boat is 1' lower than on a standard rig, and it typically droops a bit. The only solutions to that are to get used to keeping your head down, or shorten your mainsail, which will allow you to raise the boom, or tuck in a reef and raise the boom when you do. I opted for the first choice, as I think most people do.

quote:
Also, when coming about the storm jib had too much power and my rudder couldn't keep up thus while tacking from close hauling to clause hauling we would be pushed to a beam reach then we would have to steer back to close hauling.

I think your slightly undersize rudder contributes to the problem a little, but your sail handling might also contribute to it. I suggest you work on your procedures in quickly and efficiently releasing the jibsheet and tailing it in on the other side. First, don't backwind the jib when you release the jibsheet to tack, regardless of what anyone tells you. Release the jibsheet at the instant when the sail is completely luffing. Second, tail the jibsheet in on the other side as quickly as you can and trim it in flat. Third, don't oversteer the boat through the tack. Stop the turn when the boat is closehauled.

Smooth, efficient sail handling will help you get through the tack without losing too much boatspeed. When you lose boatspeed, the rudder and keel lose lift, and the boat becomes hard to steer and maneuver.

quote:
Maybe I shouldn't have reefer in?

A reef in the mainsail shouldn't have caused the problem you described.

quote:
I need a longer rudder? Mine is 65.5"�14" which I have built, see previous discussion about "need a new rudder". The rough weather/blue water rudder is 72-78" long.

A slightly longer rudder will help a little. A blue water/rough weather rudder seems like overkill. The C25 isn't a blue water/rough weather boat. Most of us have been caught in very rough waters at times and have found the factory stock rudder to be adequate. I laid my C25 on her side many times until the rudder pulled clear of the water, and, by the time that happened, I could see that, if the rudder was a foot longer, it would still have lifted out.

I think improving your sail shape and sail handling would help the most.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

BKPC25
1st Mate

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USA
74 Posts

Response Posted - 12/26/2017 : 11:56:43

Nothing was holding up the aft end of the boom, but it was drooping more than usual.
Standard rig she is.
I probably should not have reefed in that way the boat would have been more balanced.
Thx.

1973 C22 #1803 "Baby Adalynne"
(1979 C25 #1389 "Adalynne")
Instagram: #sailingadalynne
https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCQCd-egRgoAJi6fUvgEvI_A
Lake Travis, Austin, TX

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9017 Posts

Response Posted - 12/26/2017 : 12:52:34

My general rule of thumb for best performance was to reef the main before reducing the headsail, although with roller reefing the genoa was easier to reduce than the main. I rarely did a partial roll-up, and often sailed on the 130 genoa alone.

Regarding the boom, did you get some good tension on the luff when setting the reef? In a stiff breeze, you want the luff of the main pretty tight to help flatten it--if it's not well tensioned by the combination of the halyard and downhaul, it might leave the reef clew and end of the boom sagging. With your sliding gooseneck, you can also adjust the whole sail upward.

Thinking about your tacking issue... Sometimes people tack too suddenly--pushing the rudder so hard-over that it acts sorta like a brake, reducing the momentum of the boat. Then, as Steve says, they lose speed and thereby steerage and lift from the keel, causing them to fall off the wind until they get their way (speed) back. Watching professional racers tacking, I see the helm being put over gradually and not to far, to keep their momentum up. I think it also helps to let the main power you out of the tack, not hardening the headsail too much right away, so it doesn't try to push the bow over too much until you have some way on.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 12/26/2017 13:03:20

BKPC25
1st Mate

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USA
74 Posts

Response Posted - 12/26/2017 : 14:41:06

Thank you all for your responses!
The luff (at the mast) was tight. The reef points (grommets) were as close as possible to the boom. Also there were two additional reef lines tieing around the boom to keep the foot of the main winched. Still the aft end of the boom was sagging and the leech was no tight. The main sheet was tight, the boom Wang was tight (while close hauling).
Tacking I have done many times in lighter winds with a 110...no problems. This was the strongest wind I have sailing in so I did not want to fly my 110. We have tried the medium speed and slow on the tack. I guess we need more practice in strong winds.
Maybe on a calm day in the slip I will need to hoist my main with a reef and see why it's hanging low on the aft end of the boom. Maybe my main is just tired. It is 30+ years old...

1973 C22 #1803 "Baby Adalynne"
(1979 C25 #1389 "Adalynne")
Instagram: #sailingadalynne
https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCQCd-egRgoAJi6fUvgEvI_A
Lake Travis, Austin, TX

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9017 Posts

Response Posted - 12/26/2017 : 16:24:32

quote:
Originally posted by BKPC25

...Maybe my main is just tired. It is 30+ years old...

Yup. Bagged out.

When using reef ties to hold the sail bundle against the boom, be careful not to make them tight. There should be no tension against those grommets when the sail is filled--they are not reinforced for high stress like the reef tack and clew. A good puff can rip the sail. A sailmaker told me it was the most common cause of damage he dealt with.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4275 Posts

Response Posted - 12/26/2017 : 19:06:36

quote:
Originally posted by BKPC25

Went out two days ago on Lake Travis with my son.
15mph winds, nobody out on the lake. Hoisted the storm jib and reefer in for the first time.
I had to lower the aft end of the boom to try to keep the main as flat as possible when close hauling. It seems like the leech on the main should have the reef point higher, because the boom was drooping too low. Any suggestions on this? I am planning to sew a second grommet/reef point to help this issue. I have been sewing/fixing my sails with my Sailrite LSZ1, so that is not an issue.
Also, when coming about the storm jib had too much power and my rudder couldn't keep up thus while tacking from close hauling to clause hauling we would be pushed to a beam reach then we would have to steer back to close hauling.
1. Maybe I shouldn't have reefer in?
2. I need a longer rudder? Mine is 65.5"�14" which I have built, see previous discussion about "need a new rudder". The rough weather/blue water rudder is 72-78" long.
With all this said we have had a blast!
Happy New Year to all!
If you are on Instagram you can see pix of the day #sailingadalynne

I think I may have seen you that day. Did you happen to sail over towards the Oasis sometime in the middle of the day?

I saw a boat on the KXAN Oasis webcam about that time of day and from a distance it looked kinda like a C25? No one else was on the lake. I wondered at the time if it might be you. Started to take a screen shot but didn't.

Association Member

GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

Edited by - GaryB on 12/26/2017 19:07:53

BKPC25
1st Mate

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USA
74 Posts

Response Posted - 12/26/2017 : 19:38:19

Most likely it was us. 12/24 around 1500-1600hours

1973 C22 #1803 "Baby Adalynne"
(1979 C25 #1389 "Adalynne")
Instagram: #sailingadalynne
https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCQCd-egRgoAJi6fUvgEvI_A
Lake Travis, Austin, TX

Edited by - BKPC25 on 12/26/2017 20:10:56

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4275 Posts

Response Posted - 12/26/2017 : 21:04:12

quote:
Originally posted by BKPC25

Most likely it was us. 12/24 around 1500-1600hours

Yep, that was the time frame!

Association Member

GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

Edited by - GaryB on 12/26/2017 21:04:37

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3312 Posts

Response Posted - 12/27/2017 : 09:35:45

I was told by my sailmaker (who was a gold medalist in a J24 at the Pan-Am games) NEVER to tie the sail to the boom when you reef. He said that doing that would eventually rip the sail.

Derek Crawford
Chief Measurer C25-250 2008
Previous owner of "This Side UP"
1981 C-25 TR/FK #2262 Used to have an '89 C22 #9483, "Downsized"
San Antonio, Texas

dasreboot
Admiral

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803 Posts

Response Posted - 12/27/2017 : 12:16:37

quote:
Originally posted by Derek Crawford

NEVER to tie the sail to the boom when you reef.

Loose footed main! tie the main to the main.

Todd Lewis
Eowyn 87 TR/WK C25 #5656
ARWEN 84 TR/SK C25 #4031
www.mainsailsailingschool.com

BKPC25
1st Mate

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USA
74 Posts

Response Posted - 12/27/2017 : 18:39:44

This is the video of the sail on 12/24/2017

https://youtu.be/1CAW90rym7U

1973 C22 #1803 "Baby Adalynne"
(1979 C25 #1389 "Adalynne")
Instagram: #sailingadalynne
https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCQCd-egRgoAJi6fUvgEvI_A
Lake Travis, Austin, TX

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5853 Posts

Response Posted - 12/27/2017 : 19:37:15

Good video! It helps with analysis.

First, always raise the mainsail first.

Next, The mainsail had long horizontal wrinkles in it. That probably means the halyard needed to be raised with more tension. That should have pulled out the wrinkles and raised the aft end of the boom.

Next, when closehauled, the jib should have been trimmed in tighter. It was touching the pulpit most of the time.

When you tacked, you turned a bit too slow, and the result was that you lost too much speed before the sails started driving on the new tack. Dave is right that a slow turn when tacking is good, but your turn was too slow.

Otherwise it was a good job keeping her in control and upright on a blustery day.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

BKPC25
1st Mate

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USA
74 Posts

Response Posted - 12/27/2017 : 20:18:23

Thank you for the suggestions. I still need a lot more practice.
Also, I have cut out some of my really bad tacks from the video. LOL.
It was really good to watch the mistakes on the other tacks.
I have to get used to not being worried about too much tension on the lines and sails. Adalynne was built in 1979, but she is very solid and her rigging is too, but i still have to let her sailed harder, she could handle it.
I was also trying to see if the storm jib was the right choice...Maybe I could have sailed with the 110.

1973 C22 #1803 "Baby Adalynne"
(1979 C25 #1389 "Adalynne")
Instagram: #sailingadalynne
https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCQCd-egRgoAJi6fUvgEvI_A
Lake Travis, Austin, TX

Edited by - BKPC25 on 12/27/2017 20:19:44

dalelargent
Navigator

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USA
198 Posts

Response Posted - 12/27/2017 : 20:42:57

Would tying the �main to the main� on a loose footed sail still not tear a sail if not released properly? (Although I can imagine it might slow down the process affording a bit more time to correct an error.)

And I am sure you would have been fine with the 110. Especially with the reefed main. I sail that combo routinely in similar winds (and I have a tall rig)

1989 c25 WK/TR #5838
1998 Catalina 36 mkii
1983 Vagabond 14

BKPC25
1st Mate

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USA
74 Posts

Response Posted - 12/27/2017 : 20:45:59

I will try it next time. 110 and a reefed main. Thx.

1973 C22 #1803 "Baby Adalynne"
(1979 C25 #1389 "Adalynne")
Instagram: #sailingadalynne
https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCQCd-egRgoAJi6fUvgEvI_A
Lake Travis, Austin, TX

Lee Panza
Captain

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USA
465 Posts

Response Posted - 12/28/2017 : 00:55:54

Balint:

For what it's worth (free advice, you know...), here are a few observations per your video.

At 1:13 we can see the reef tack cringle in the jumble of sail above the boom. This is the grommet with the reefing line through it on the leading edge (the luff) of the sail. The reefing line needs to draw this down to the boom. Then the halyard will have something to pull against to produce tension in the luff, flattening it. This removes the wrinkles in the forward portion of the sail. Of course, those slugs all need to be freed so the luff can straighten out as you pull the halyard.

At 1:25 you are tying the reef ties, but the reef tack is still unsecured. It looks like you never got those jammed slugs freed. At 1:27 the reefing line is still running UP to the reef tack cringle.

In order for the aft edge of the sail (the leech) to support the aft end of the boom, the halyard needs to raise the sail up to its proper reefed height, where the luff is fully extended and snug against the reef tack. Then, as long as the reef clew cringle (the grommet along the leech that the reefing line goes through) is drawn down snug against the boom, the boom will hang horizontally from the sail because the reef tack and the reef clew are installed at the same height on the sail.

The luff and the leech are supposed to take the primary tension in the sail. When it�s set up correctly, the reef ties in between are just for neatening up the bunt (the bundle of cloth between the luff and the leech). As has been pointed out, they are NOT for holding the sail down to the boom. You were fortunate that you didn�t tear the sail, because the sail ties were all that was carrying the load.

You really don�t need to tie the reef ties at all, but if you do that should be the last thing you do after the luff and the leech are secured. You definitely need to secure the clew and tack first.

The trouble with a destination - any destination, really - is that it interrupts The Journey.

Lee Panza
SR/SK #2134
San Francisco Bay
(Brisbane, CA)

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3370 Posts

Response Posted - 12/28/2017 : 04:21:49

Thanks for the video ! Any day you can get out for a sail, is a great day !

Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Quantico, Va
http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html

BKPC25
1st Mate

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USA
74 Posts

Response Posted - 12/28/2017 : 06:22:24

Lee, thx for taking your time watching and writting. The video only shows my first attempt to reef in. The sail slugs under the reef point were released end slid back in the track under the sail feed slot. Which was a little annoying since I had to release the sail track stop. Learning from this I have to install a mast track gate...
Also, later i did tighten the clew and tack reef points better/closer to the boom. I have a single line system run back to the cockpit but it was difficult to use, so I might go back to a two line system which simply ties back to the boom.
Lesson learned: I should have practiced reefing an the dock a few times...
Larry, you are correct. Also, your website is very nice.
Happy New Year!

1973 C22 #1803 "Baby Adalynne"
(1979 C25 #1389 "Adalynne")
Instagram: #sailingadalynne
https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCQCd-egRgoAJi6fUvgEvI_A
Lake Travis, Austin, TX

dasreboot
Admiral

Members Avatar

803 Posts

Response Posted - 12/28/2017 : 10:18:09

quote:
Originally posted by dalelargent

Would tying the �main to the main� on a loose footed sail still not tear a sail if not released properly? (Although I can imagine it might slow down the process affording a bit more time to correct an error.)

I'm only talking about the reefing pennants. same as if you had slugs on the boom. basically the pennants take no strain.
But yes, you will damage the sail if you shake out the reef without first untying the pennants.

Todd Lewis
Eowyn 87 TR/WK C25 #5656
ARWEN 84 TR/SK C25 #4031
www.mainsailsailingschool.com

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9017 Posts

Response Posted - 12/28/2017 : 17:02:17

As Steve said, hoist the main first, head-to-wind so you're luffing under power before you turn off the motor. You can hoist the jib while under way under the main, allowing it to luff until it's fully up. Drop the main while luffing up into the wind under power--it comes down easier and is easier to handle when it's luffing with the boom centered and mainsheet hardened. But that raises a question:

Did I see the "pigtail" from the backstay still attached to the boom when you hoisted the main? If so, DON'T DO THAT. ALWAYS unclip the pigtail first--if you forget it and turn away from the wind to sail, things can get hairy, especially on a day like that. I know that can let the boom down into the cockpit, but that brings up another topic: I didn't catch whether you have a topping lift, but if not, it's a very simple, valuable addition, especially when reefing out on the water. A simple installation involves just a small swivel block on the boom-end casting, and a cleat on the side of the boom. (I had an adjustable topping lift, left the pigtail permanently clipped to the backstay, and my replacement standing rigging didn't even have a pigtail.)

I suspect your horizontal wrinkles and drooping boom are due to the downhaul not being sufficiently tensioned. When you hoist the main, it might be pulling the gooseneck up too far--not held down adequately by the downhaul from the gooseneck to a cleat attached in the slot near the base of the mast. Some people hoist the main and then literally sit on the boom near the mast to tension the luff and secure the downhaul. I left it permanently cleated and just used the halyard to tension the luff, but we weren't racing--at least not "officially".

I prefer a two-line reefing system, so that the reef tack can be pulled down tight first, and then the reef clew. This helps insure you have good tension between the two. If too much tension is applied to the clew first, it can pull slugs out of the mast and/or keep the tack from being properly secured. A single line doesn't give you control over that. Both lines can be led to the cockpit along with your halyards--some day... Meanwhile, setting the reef at the dock is a good idea on a day like that. (First rule of reefing: "The time to do it is when you first think of it.") Shaking out a reef you don't need is a lot easier than tucking in a reef when things are getting hairy.

Mast gate plates allow the slugs to stack up on the gooseneck without falling out of the opening--both for reefing and for dropping the sail. When reefing, the further down you can get the slugs and the reef tack, the better the sail shape will be, and the less likely a slug will get popped out by tension from the reef clew.

I didn't really catch the size of your storm jib, but I'll suggest on a day like that you use your 110. It will drive the boat better for tacking--the C-25 is designed to be primarily driven by the headsail. The first thing to reduce in order to reduce heeling and excessive weather helm is the main. Its center of area (or "center of effort") is higher than the jib's, so lowering that reduces heeling and may even increase your performance, since the jib will be more upright to the wind and the keel more upright in the water.

EDIT: One more thing... I'm suspicious the jib sheet car is a little too far back in that video. Its placement along the track determines the relative tensions of the foot and the leech of the jib. Up to a point, you want it back somewhat in strong wind to flatten the lower section of the jib, and forward in light air to make the sail fuller. But back too far allows the upper part of the jib to "twist off" and virtually luff, which doesn't do much good. In general, you want the vector described by the jib sheet to be perpendicular to the forestay, and you can adjust the car forward or aft of that for lighter or stronger wind. (Our racers here can correct me on the specifics.)

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 12/28/2017 17:15:01

BKPC25
1st Mate

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USA
74 Posts

Response Posted - 12/28/2017 : 18:26:04

Dave, thx for spending the time to write suggestions. After a few tacks, which are cut out of the video, I have slid the track block forward to accommodate the correct/better trim for the storm jib.
Now looking back to our few hours out with my son on that day,(which no matter how wrong I was with trim, etc.., was a fantastic few hours) I have made multiple mistakes and I am so greatful of the support and suggestions of you and the everybody else's.
I cannot wait to go out again and do a better job.

1973 C22 #1803 "Baby Adalynne"
(1979 C25 #1389 "Adalynne")
Instagram: #sailingadalynne
https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCQCd-egRgoAJi6fUvgEvI_A
Lake Travis, Austin, TX

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9017 Posts

Response Posted - 12/28/2017 : 20:51:52

We all started somewhere, and we all did things "sub-optimally" early on. We also still do them... and we still flat-out screw up. (I know--it's hard to believe, and somebody here might refute that.

)

Getting caught "in irons" attempting a tack is a lot better than getting caught with no answer for your boss or your customer back in the real world...

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 12/28/2017 20:52:54

BKPC25
1st Mate

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USA
74 Posts

Response Posted - 12/28/2017 : 21:21:10

Also Dave... I was so eager to go out...I did not do my usual check, 1. 2. 3. etc, thus yes, I did forget to disconnect the pigtail and to release the coiled up main sheet.
I screwed up on so many levels and I am proud of it. I will hopefully never do them again, but i will. It's great. Too much fun.
As we speak I have been reading Andrew Evans's book "Singlehanded Sailing"...he admits of screwing up even after so many years and nautical miles. So, I don't feel so bad.
I have just "re-read" all your awesome responses.
Here is another note from Dave: " I didn't catch whether you have a topping lift, but if not, it's a very simple, valuable addition, especially when reefing out on the water. A simple installation involves just a small swivel block on the boom-end casting, and a cleat on the side of the boom.".. I do have a boom topping lift with a 2:1MA ( I just replaced the line that goes up to the mast (see Ep.5 Climbing the mast at 4m:45s: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnEHUXawS7E ).

1973 C22 #1803 "Baby Adalynne"
(1979 C25 #1389 "Adalynne")
Instagram: #sailingadalynne
https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCQCd-egRgoAJi6fUvgEvI_A
Lake Travis, Austin, TX

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9017 Posts

Response Posted - 12/28/2017 : 21:59:42

I don't know about "awesome"--I often have to admit to telling people more than I know...

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

dasreboot
Admiral

Members Avatar

803 Posts

Response Posted - 12/29/2017 : 05:39:00

been sailing since i was 19 (49 now). I still forget the damn pigtail. We all make all kinds of mistakes. I've blown tacks, gotten hung up on crabpots, and run aground (although never in my cat25 unless you count that time I forgot my key at the boat ramp and it sat in the mud there until the tide came in.

) I've always felt that the whole thing is a journey of self improvement. I'm only really competing with myself. Its all worth it when your pfd cushion gets knocked overboard and you execute a perfect figure 8 recovery under sail to get it back.

Todd Lewis
Eowyn 87 TR/WK C25 #5656
ARWEN 84 TR/SK C25 #4031
www.mainsailsailingschool.com

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