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My boat needs a new rudder!

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Erik Cornelison
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USA
194 Posts

Initially Posted - 12/21/2017 : 16:34:42

Hey sailors - my boat needs a new rudder, its starting to delaminate at the waterline.

Has anyone replaced their rudder with an upgraded rudder such as the the HDPE type material or the bigger/longer Blue water series with kick up option?

Could you tell me how you liked the upgraded rudder vs. standard replacement?
I need your experience to help me decide on a replacement.

Erik Cornelison
6th Generation Professional Sailor, First Gen Submarine Sailor.
1986 Standard Rig SW. #5234

BKPC25
1st Mate

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USA
74 Posts

Response Posted - 12/21/2017 : 16:45:15

The HDPE looked really good option, but it is ridiculously expensive+freight shipping...
Depending on the year of your boat you might still have to make some mods...
I ended up building my own and fiberglassed it. Cost about $100.

1973 C22 #1803 "Baby Adalynne"
(1979 C25 #1389 "Adalynne")
Instagram: #sailingadalynne
https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCQCd-egRgoAJi6fUvgEvI_A
Lake Travis, Austin, TX

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5235 Posts

Response Posted - 12/21/2017 : 23:49:33

I just watched a YouTube video from Boatworks Today where a guy replaced the foam core in his old rudder using a chemical foam. He cut out one side of the rudder using an oscillating tool, peeled back the fiberglass to show the soggy core. He used the same oscillating tool to cut out the old foam. He secured the rod using several bolts, then mixed up small batches of foam formula and filled up the cavity.
Once he filled it, he shaped the foam to accept the fiberglass covering, reattached, then smoothed it out by sanding and faring.
Here's the first of the series
https://youtu.be/MRXNnFx7DBQ

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Edited by - Voyager on 12/21/2017 23:50:55

jduck00
Captain

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USA
313 Posts

Response Posted - 12/22/2017 : 07:48:07

I didn't go blue water on mine. The rudder I picked up did end up being a couple of inches longer. I looked at kick up rudders. Its real shallow where I live. I didn't end up going with a kick up for a couple of reasons. The first was cost. The second is from what I read, the balanced rudders beat them in handling. I can't compare them, but I do like the balanced rudder.

I picked up a new balanced rudder from Foss Foam. http://www.newrudders.com. I'm fairly close to their shop here in FL and drove up to pick it up. Real likable fellows. The rudder itself is great. It was like adding power steering to the boat. My first time really getting to use it was in 10-12 knts with the 155 up. Had one rail in the water, and I could manage the tiller with two fingers on it.

Getting the rudder installed was a bit of work. Its not as simple as bolting it up and going sailing. First you have to mock it up and mark the locations of all the bolts. Then you over drill the bolt holes and fill them with epoxy. Then you get to mock it back up and mark the bolt locations again. Well worth effort and cost.

Jeremy Duck
The Lucky Duck
1980 SKSR Hull # 1850

BKPC25
1st Mate

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USA
74 Posts

Response Posted - 12/22/2017 : 08:00:12

Jeremy what is the length of your rudder 65.5 or 72 inches?
The rudder I have built was a balanced rudder design, which did not fit my 1979 and had to recut it under the hull. The part that jots out forward of the kindle. I will make a new one,cause I have made the short version and it make a huge difference when close hauling.

1973 C22 #1803 "Baby Adalynne"
(1979 C25 #1389 "Adalynne")
Instagram: #sailingadalynne
https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCQCd-egRgoAJi6fUvgEvI_A
Lake Travis, Austin, TX

jduck00
Captain

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USA
313 Posts

Response Posted - 12/22/2017 : 09:13:53

Overall length is ~69". Here is a sketch that Bob at Foss Foam sent over. I mounted mine as high as I could, and its still a couple of inches deeper than my swing keel. My old rudder was about even with the keel. I generally crank the keel down a couple of turns so hits first if I run shallow.

Jeremy Duck
The Lucky Duck
1980 SKSR Hull # 1850

BKPC25
1st Mate

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USA
74 Posts

Response Posted - 12/22/2017 : 09:21:47

That is the exact plan I used, however the 9-1/2x1-3/4 rectangular part had to be cut out to fit properly.
The original rudder is totally plumb on its leading edge and is 72" long.
fit.

1973 C22 #1803 "Baby Adalynne"
(1979 C25 #1389 "Adalynne")
Instagram: #sailingadalynne
https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCQCd-egRgoAJi6fUvgEvI_A
Lake Travis, Austin, TX

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1736 Posts

Response Posted - 12/22/2017 : 11:48:25

While not having a swing keel, I too had to replace my rudder ten years back and went with the HDPE version. I viewed a safe and appropriate rudder being worth every penny spent. While I purchased through CD they are made by RudderCraft, who also make traditional fiberglass rudders. Foth-Foam also produces rudders

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT

Erik Cornelison
Navigator

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USA
194 Posts

Response Posted - 12/22/2017 : 14:34:50

What is different about the year of boat that would make it unable to attach/use a rudder? I don't know enough about the differences between the years of C25's.

Erik Cornelison
6th Generation Professional Sailor, First Gen Submarine Sailor.
1986 Standard Rig SW. #5234

jduck00
Captain

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USA
313 Posts

Response Posted - 12/22/2017 : 14:42:07

quote:
Originally posted by BKPC25

That is the exact plan I used, however the 9-1/2x1-3/4 rectangular part had to be cut out to fit properly.
The original rudder is totally plumb on its leading edge and is 72" long.
fit.

That's how my original was. I went ahead and ordered new pintles to go with the new rudder. There is a long and a short pintle. The long one goes on top. Didn't have any issue getting the rudder to hang plumb with them.

Jeremy Duck
The Lucky Duck
1980 SKSR Hull # 1850

BKPC25
1st Mate

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USA
74 Posts

Response Posted - 12/22/2017 : 14:55:22

Erik, have you considered to try to fix the rudder you have now? The original rudder has about a half an inch of "meat" that could be sanded down as needed an reglassed.
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=407
If you don't buy a balanced rudder than there is no modifications needed, because they are plumb at the leading edge.
The balanced rudder design did not make a difference to me.

1973 C22 #1803 "Baby Adalynne"
(1979 C25 #1389 "Adalynne")
Instagram: #sailingadalynne
https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCQCd-egRgoAJi6fUvgEvI_A
Lake Travis, Austin, TX

Erik Cornelison
Navigator

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USA
194 Posts

Response Posted - 12/22/2017 : 16:37:53

quote:
Originally posted by BKPC25

Erik, have you considered to try to fix the rudder you have now? The original rudder has about a half an inch of "meat" that could be sanded down as needed an reglassed.
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=407
If you don't buy a balanced rudder than there is no modifications needed, because they are plumb at the leading edge.
The balanced rudder design did not make a difference to me.

I may try to repair and add fiberglass, a real quick job and see how it goes, but since the rudder already has a small crack at waterline, I would replace it if I keep the boat in the water next summer with the rudder submerged all season. If it�s on the trailer it won�t matter too much. I don�t really want to be rebuilding the rudder at all and would rather just order a new one. I�m not into rebuilding major things like that right now , and prefer to just sail more with my young boys and wife.

Erik Cornelison
6th Generation Professional Sailor, First Gen Submarine Sailor.
1986 Standard Rig SW. #5234

sethp001
Mainsheet C-25 Tech Editor

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814 Posts

Response Posted - 12/22/2017 : 17:31:45

One of our forum members (Zeil I think, who cruised for months) made a spare rudder out of solid wood. It looked like he coated it with epoxy or something else to make it impervious to water. I thought it looked great and was a good alternative.

Seth
"Outlier" 1987 Catalina 25 SR/SK/Traditional Interior #5541
"Zoo" 1977 Morgan Out Island 30
"Nomad" 1980 Prindle 16
"Lost" 1988 Catalina Capri 14.2 (sold - yay!)
"Marine Tex 1" Unknown Origin POS 8' Fiberglass Dinghy
https://whichsailboat.com/2014/07/27/catalina-25-review/

Edited by - sethp001 on 12/22/2017 17:32:10

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1736 Posts

Response Posted - 12/22/2017 : 19:10:01

And . . . . don't forget about looking for someone who maybe parting out their boat -- stranger things have happened than locating a used rudder.

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT

BKPC25
1st Mate

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USA
74 Posts

Response Posted - 12/22/2017 : 19:25:05

Erik, yep, best, quickest choice to buy a new one and enjoy sailing ASAP. In my case it did not make financial sense to spend $1K on a boat that is worth between $1K to maybe 2K. Plus I love a challenge.
If you watch this video you can see the rudder I have built.
https://youtu.be/DCs7gosNGxo

1973 C22 #1803 "Baby Adalynne"
(1979 C25 #1389 "Adalynne")
Instagram: #sailingadalynne
https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCQCd-egRgoAJi6fUvgEvI_A
Lake Travis, Austin, TX

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3312 Posts

Response Posted - 12/23/2017 : 09:03:04

A few years back I bought a new balanced rudder from Ruddercraft. Great people to deal with - they even installed the pintles (after I sent them the correct measurements).

Derek Crawford
Chief Measurer C25-250 2008
Previous owner of "This Side UP"
1981 C-25 TR/FK #2262 Used to have an '89 C22 #9483, "Downsized"
San Antonio, Texas

SKS
Navigator

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USA
161 Posts

Response Posted - 12/24/2017 : 10:47:31

What is the benefit of the double cut-out in the rudder ?
I read somewhere that a balanced rudder has 15% of the area ahead of the pintles.
It seems to me that it would be simpler and more effective to just move 15% of the area in front of the pintles with only one cutout.

quote:
Originally posted by jduck00

Overall length is ~69". Here is a sketch that Bob at Foss Foam sent over. I mounted mine as high as I could, and its still a couple of inches deeper than my swing keel. My old rudder was about even with the keel. I generally crank the keel down a couple of turns so hits first if I run shallow.

"Lady E" 1986 Catalina 25: Fin Keel, Standard Rig, Inboard M12 Diesel, Sail No. 5339
Sailing out of Norwalk Cove Marina, Connecticut

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3994 Posts

Response Posted - 12/25/2017 : 12:24:38

quote:
What is the benefit of the double cut-out in the rudder

Its a structural step out and spreads the breaking load/stress over a wider area. Without that first step the second step now larger would be taking all of the breaking force/stress . Unfortunately as many have found out the breaking force/stress in reality seems to be concentrated just below or at the lower pintle.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 12/25/2017 12:30:11

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5235 Posts

Response Posted - 12/25/2017 : 20:20:56

Scott, if that's the known failure mode don't you think there'd be a way to beef up that section just below the lower pintle? Perhaps extra fiberglass thickness or a stainless plate to reinforce that area? I've sailed in following seas and quartering sea conditions where I thought something was going to snap and it would sure be nice to have a little extra insurance. If folks are going to the trouble of building or buying new rudders, wouldn't it just make sense to reinforce that area?

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3369 Posts

Response Posted - 12/26/2017 : 06:03:35

Bruce,

I agree with your assessment that if going to the trouble of building a new rudder, then the major stress area should be reinforced.

On the other hand, the majority of rudders on all Cat 25s have held up for 25+ years without replacement and almost every sailboat component is going to have stress points. Given other frequently used sailboat components, outboards, sails, stays, sheets, mast blocks/sheaves, even companionway boards.....at some point, these components have to or should be replaced or at least well maintained. I would think that almost anything that I own, if it lasted over 25 years, I would seek a replacement with same design/build based on past reliability - Hopefully gain same/equal reliability. However, it is hard to judge continued reliability without some basis - Recommendations on proven service from many. As mfrs and/or material construction changes thru the years and in the case of a component that is then home built.....even with reinforced areas, reliability equal to the original will be hard to judge. A leap of faith may be necessary and confidence gained thru time.

My rudder is still going strong after 28 years and so my first choice, if I had to replace it, would be to seek the original mfr (or spin-off of the original which I believe is still in the business) and of similar material construction as to the original...which I believe is still available.

I know it is a hard thing to deal with when considering buying a new rudder that turns out to be of significant cost compared to the depreciated value of the sailboat versus trying to make a rudder for what is hoped to be a fraction of the cost of buying new. I guess I would be impressed with anyone that undertakes such a project and has had success. But I feel my boat is worth a lot more to me than what it would be worth on the open market. I know if my outboard crapped out, I would want a reliable replacement and I would go new even if it meant shelling out $2000-$3000. On the other hand, we all take great enjoyment when we undertake projects and actually wind up turning a repair into an improvement, then reap the cost savings benefit and satisfaction of doing it ourselves. Just that in the case of major components of the boat that relate to safety and necessity, considering buying new should be given serious consideration.

Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Quantico, Va
http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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3994 Posts

Response Posted - 12/26/2017 : 10:20:08

quote:
don't you think there'd be a way to beef up that section just below the lower pintle?

Well if you come up with a good idea tell me but I agree with Larry that the rudders do last for a very long time and as with everything they do have a life span. If I were in need of a new one I would probably go with the HDPE. One solid piece, Impervious to water. With a wing keel I would go with the standard length so the rudder isn't the lowest point but with a fin keel the blue water rudder might be better. The extra length could help in reducing rounding up. If someone that has an HDPE rudder could tell me how they applied bottom paint to it that would be nice because I have heard that it won't stick to it. Could they improve the foam rudders? Sure by adding a SS grid made of rods and laid into the foam. Like Re bar in concrete. Unfortunately that would increase costs and eliminate selling replacements so that isn't going to happen

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9015 Posts

Response Posted - 12/26/2017 : 11:02:17

quote:
Originally posted by Voyager

Scott, if that's the known failure mode don't you think there'd be a way to beef up that section just below the lower pintle?...

The original design (pre-1988) was "beefed up" with a plywood core inside the head of the rudder where both pintles and the tiller are attached. The problem has been when that core is compromised by moisture, causing rot and swelling (often from freezing) that splits the fiberglass shell and weakens the "beef". The worst forces come at the lower pintle when the boat pitches fore-and-aft while heeled, with additional torque from weather helm. Some "beefing up" might successfully prevent disaster, or it might just delay it once the core is compromised. And a broken rudder in a blow is no fun! The balanced designs, as a few people (myself included) have reported, are significant improvements over the original--like adding power steering even if there's a few degrees of weather helm. And the NACA foil section used on the foam-cored fiberglass one I bought seemed to virtually eliminate the fluttering tendency of the original "knife blade" rudder.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 12/26/2017 11:04:32

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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3369 Posts

Response Posted - 12/26/2017 : 11:50:18

Dave,

So, I am wondering exactly what the core is made of on my 1989 CAT 25. Is it foam or plywood with an outer shell of fiberglass. Foss Foam indicates they make it out of foam and a fiberglass shell. I believe Catalina Direct sells rudders by a different mfr made either solid HDPE or a foam and fiberglass. Believe a few years ago, on this forum, someone provided Foss Foam their balanced 1989 Cat25 rudder since Foss Foam did not have that specific latest balanced rudder design with the 2 steps increasing it's width. believe they offered that individual a free rudder in exchange for using his rudder to design the prototype. Anyone remember that forum posting? Wondering how that rudder is holding up and if performs exactly equal to the OEM rudder?

Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Quantico, Va
http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html

Edited by - OLarryR on 12/26/2017 11:51:19

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9015 Posts

Response Posted - 12/26/2017 : 12:27:22

quote:
Originally posted by OLarryR

So, I am wondering exactly what the core is made of on my 1989 CAT 25. Is it foam or plywood with an outer shell of fiberglass...

As I recall, the rudder I bought from CD some time around 2002 was the same thing Catalina started putting on the C-25 starting in 1988--the balanced design illustrated above, with a fiberglass shell over a foam core. Since I drilled for and installed the pintles, I know that was the construction of the one I bought.

Here's the thread on the free prototype:
http://catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=23022&whichpage=1

One little quirk of that design is that it was so light it wanted to float off the gudgeons--I had to make sure it was securely pinned! The original, by comparison, felt like lead--probably due to the solid fiberglass below the waterline, the plywood core above it, and moisture in the plywood.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 12/26/2017 12:31:56

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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3994 Posts

Response Posted - 12/26/2017 : 13:28:48

Dave, You might be off by a year. My 87 has the foam balanced rudder that my PO said was original so maybe 86 or sometime in 87. I can definitely say that there isn't any wood around the pintle area. When I replaced my pintles there was nothing but foam inside the bolt holes. When replacing the pintles you need to take care not to over tighten the bolts and crush the fiberglass shell and foam core. Just snug is correct.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

BKPC25
1st Mate

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USA
74 Posts

Response Posted - 12/26/2017 : 15:01:51

On this link there is pictures of the inside of a broken rudder.
https://79catalina25.com/2017/08/05/broken-rudder-and-option-b/

You can also see the balanced rudder that I have built. The two step leading edge did not fit so I had to cut out the first step. The next one I will build longer and better material.

If you don't mind spending the $$ on a HDPE one it's probably wise.

1973 C22 #1803 "Baby Adalynne"
(1979 C25 #1389 "Adalynne")
Instagram: #sailingadalynne
https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCQCd-egRgoAJi6fUvgEvI_A
Lake Travis, Austin, TX

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