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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

My boat needs a new rudder!

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islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3994 Posts

Response Posted - 12/26/2017 : 15:38:03

Yep, That is definitely an earlier rudder with the wood core that Dave mentioned. The balanced rudder needs to be turned 90 deg. to the transom then line up the pintles and drop them in. If you don't that bottom step out will hit the transom first preventing the pintles from lining up with the gudgion holes. With the rudder 90deg. You can line up the pintles because that bottom step out won't hit anything then when the rudder drops down into the gudgions it will clear the keel when turned straight.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 12/26/2017 16:26:31

BKPC25
1st Mate

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USA
74 Posts

Response Posted - 12/26/2017 : 15:43:34

I did have it turned as far out as possibly can and dropped it in. When I tried to straighten out the rudder the first step would hit the very last run of the hull where it meets the transom.

1973 C22 #1803 "Baby Adalynne"
(1979 C25 #1389 "Adalynne")
Instagram: #sailingadalynne
https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCQCd-egRgoAJi6fUvgEvI_A
Lake Travis, Austin, TX

BKPC25
1st Mate

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USA
74 Posts

Response Posted - 12/26/2017 : 16:05:42

Recheck this link. I added a screen shot to show how the rudder hangs. Scroll all the way down okn the link.
https://79catalina25.com/2017/08/05/broken-rudder-and-option-b/

1973 C22 #1803 "Baby Adalynne"
(1979 C25 #1389 "Adalynne")
Instagram: #sailingadalynne
https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCQCd-egRgoAJi6fUvgEvI_A
Lake Travis, Austin, TX

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3994 Posts

Response Posted - 12/26/2017 : 16:23:28

I get ya, Something must be different. My balanced rudder has those same dimensions as the drawing and as long as I turn it to hang it, It goes on. Possibly your rudder is set deeper into the pintles than mine putting your rudder closer to the transom? Mystery..

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

BKPC25
1st Mate

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USA
74 Posts

Response Posted - 12/26/2017 : 16:40:12

Adalynne is a 1979.
Most likely there were some changes through the years...

1973 C22 #1803 "Baby Adalynne"
(1979 C25 #1389 "Adalynne")
Instagram: #sailingadalynne
https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCQCd-egRgoAJi6fUvgEvI_A
Lake Travis, Austin, TX

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9017 Posts

Response Posted - 12/26/2017 : 20:53:47

The major difference I recall that would affect this was the 1989+ hulls omitted the cut-out at the top of the transom, which means the rudder was mounted higher so the tiller cleared. So the pintle mounting position was different from the vintages prior to 1989. CD didn't mount the pintles--I had to decide their position for my 1985 and mount them.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

SKS
Navigator

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USA
161 Posts

Response Posted - 12/26/2017 : 22:00:14

quote:
Originally posted by BKPC25

Recheck this link. I added a screen shot to show how the rudder hangs. Scroll all the way down okn the link.
https://79catalina25.com/2017/08/05/broken-rudder-and-option-b/

Nicely done. I see you utilized a single cut out design. I'm definitely thinking of the same.

"Lady E" 1986 Catalina 25: Fin Keel, Standard Rig, Inboard M12 Diesel, Sail No. 5339
Sailing out of Norwalk Cove Marina, Connecticut

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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3370 Posts

Response Posted - 12/27/2017 : 05:20:11

Dave,

I forgot to thank you for finding that old link when Foss Foam was borrowing one of our Forum individual's rudder to make a new template on the balanced rudder design. Wow ! That posting originated back in 2011 and was 4 pages of postings long ! Re-reading it now refreshes my memory on the whole topic/subject at that time. I recall that I was seriously thinking of replacing my rudder at that time since the PO (back in 2005 when I bought my boat) had indicated that when he purchased the boat (4 years earlier...that then was way back in ...~ 2007) had a survey performed and it indicated there was moisture in the rudder. But the survey only listed it as a finding and not necessarily a reason that the rudder needed to be changed out. Anyway, I decided to keep my rudder a bit longer as it showed no signs of deterioration. Then, several years ago, I had a blister removal/waterproofing hull bottom job performed and at that time, I had mentioned to the maintenance manager that I was thinking of replacing the rudder, so he could leave that alone. But he looked the rudder over and said it was fine and recommended not replacing it. So.....now it's at least 4 years later and rudder now over 27 years old and still looks fine.

Anyway, thanks again for finding that posting - It is a good reference and explains various options even obtaining a rudder directly from Catalina , the parent company. Also the long posting from 2011 explains why Foss Foam having built rudders for over 30 years needed a template for the Cat25 last generation, balanced rudder - Back in the day, Foss Foam had turned over their templates to Catalina when Catalina decided to build their own rudders).

Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Quantico, Va
http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3994 Posts

Response Posted - 12/27/2017 : 07:50:10

I believe I solved the mystery. The drawing and dimensions are wrong. The drawing has the first step out at 2" then the second at 3" That equals 5" but the drawing says that the two step outs equals 5 1/2". Also the drawing has the leading edge between the step outs on an angle when in reality it should be parallel to the leading edge where the pintles are. If you build a rudder to those dimensions that area will be angled instead of parallel and will hit the transom.
Compare his photo to my rudder. Note the difference between the step outs.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

SKS
Navigator

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USA
161 Posts

Response Posted - 12/27/2017 : 10:20:53

quote:
Originally posted by islander

I believe I solved the mystery. The drawing and dimensions are wrong. The drawing has the first step out at 2" then the second at 3" That equals 5" but the drawing says that the two step outs equals 5 1/2". Also the drawing has the leading edge between the step outs on an angle when in reality it should be parallel to the leading edge where the pintles are. If you build a rudder to those dimensions that area will be angled instead of parallel and will hit the transom.
Compare his photo to my rudder. Note the difference between the step outs.

Nice. Very nice indeed. The shape seems to match the CD and Ruddercraft rudders.
If at all possible, can you share a drawing of what you built ?

"Lady E" 1986 Catalina 25: Fin Keel, Standard Rig, Inboard M12 Diesel, Sail No. 5339
Sailing out of Norwalk Cove Marina, Connecticut

Edited by - SKS on 12/27/2017 10:23:05

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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3994 Posts

Response Posted - 12/27/2017 : 10:40:41

I didn't build it.The top photo is the Catalina balanced foam rudder. It's the real thing so if you build one following the drawing specs you end up with the angle as in the lower photo.. I will guess that BKPC25 (lower photo) rudder hit the very bottom of the transom down by the little skeg.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 12/27/2017 13:32:59

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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3754 Posts

Response Posted - 12/29/2017 : 20:04:27

HDPE generally won't accept any paint without preheating, so I don't see how it could be bottom painted until it is covered with barnacles, the only thing that seems to stick to it without pretreatment. It would probably stay clean on a boat with frequent use, but sitting for several weeks might be a different story. Do keep in mind that this is opinion based only on casual observation of rental kayaks sitting in saltwater. Also, I've read one report of an HDPE rudder breaking and multiple of them flexing from lateral loads in moderate winds.

Dave B. aboard Pearl
1982 TR/SK/Trad. #3399
Lake Erie/Florida Panhandle

Edited by - Dave5041 on 12/29/2017 20:16:58

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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3994 Posts

Response Posted - 12/30/2017 : 09:10:54

quote:
I've read one report of an HDPE rudder breaking and multiple of them flexing from lateral loads in moderate winds.

I've heard that story too but I wouldn't base a decision on one mans experience. We don't know the background story or the circumstances or the fact that they have probably sold hundreds of HDPE rudders without any problems or complaints. Would you have not bought a C25 if a friend had said "Stay away from those boats, I've heard the windows leak so bad that you'll be bailing it out all the time". There is a C25 in my marina that has an HDPE rudder and I looked it over out of curiosity. The owner said he was happy with it so I asked him if it flexed. He looked at me kinda funny and said Not that he could tell. We both grabbed the bottom of the rudder and couldn't make it flex so bottom line is that I was impressed with it. Maybe it might flex some under sailing conditions and maybe that's a good thing. Rather it flex a little that break but is it enough to be noticeable or effect the boat handling I don't know. I believe that Peter Bigelow (Bigelowp) has an HDPE rudder so maybe he could enlighten us with his experience. Pete you out there?

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 12/30/2017 10:42:10

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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3754 Posts

Response Posted - 12/30/2017 : 12:39:02

More input is always good. I am just reporting what I've read. To keep it clear, I am still considering HDPE and weighing using Starboard for the lower component of my kick-up rudder. The issue is that the only source for 1.5" HDPE panel that I've found so far prices out at $400 for the appropriate sized panel. That makes CD's entire kick-up system for $ 949 reasonably competitive.

Dave B. aboard Pearl
1982 TR/SK/Trad. #3399
Lake Erie/Florida Panhandle

Edited by - Dave5041 on 12/30/2017 12:54:45

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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1739 Posts

Response Posted - 12/30/2017 : 15:57:32

Lots of options suggested, however . . . . One mans opinion: don't cut costs on rudder or standing rigging. Get what is the "best" option, and if it costs a bit more, it is money well spent to assure safety.

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT

Edited by - bigelowp on 12/30/2017 15:58:18

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5853 Posts

Response Posted - 12/30/2017 : 17:17:33

I've been crewing on a sailboat once that broke it's rudder, once that broke it's tiller and was nearby when another boat broke it's rudder. All three incidents happened in strong, gusting winds and choppy seas, but in no instance did it appear that there was an imminent danger. We took down the sails and the biggest problem, of course, was that you couldn't steer the boat. When the tiller broke, we rigged a boat hook as a tiller. When the nearby boat broke his rudder, I towed it with my boat. The third time the rudder broke, it didn't break completely. It was held on by one or two small bolts and we were able to get it into it's slip before it finally let go completely. Those were all inboard powered boats. An outboard engine can steer a boat without a rudder, of course.

I agree that you shouldn't let the cost of a rudder spoil your whole sailing season. There aren't a lot of uses for a boat without a rudder. Perhaps a lawn decoration.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3754 Posts

Response Posted - 12/30/2017 : 22:57:58

I broke a rudder once on my previous boat and just sailed to the dock. It was a little tricky due to the very short chord of a swing keel but a sailboat can be steered by sail trim in moderate conditions. You can steer a boat if you can fly some jib and main, some boats are just easier than others.

Dave B. aboard Pearl
1982 TR/SK/Trad. #3399
Lake Erie/Florida Panhandle

Erik Cornelison
Navigator

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USA
194 Posts

Response Posted - 12/31/2017 : 07:39:33

I also broke a rudder on a 23 Dutchcraft in Charleston harbor. The Dutchcrafts are known for weak rudder shafts. If I hadn�t had a motor, I would of not been able to return to port without a tow because of the tidal currents in Charleston.

Erik Cornelison
6th Generation Professional Sailor, First Gen Submarine Sailor.
1986 Standard Rig SW. #5234

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