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Rudder cracks

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Tradewind
Admiral

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USA
531 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/22/2011 : 16:04:48

I have cracks in the gelcoat on the port side of the rudder, don't know how deep the cracks are. Anyone experienced this? Opinions?

I don't know how to make the pics smaller, if anyone can help with that I would appreciate it.

The bottom photo shows where the PO put some kind of caulk, maybe 4200 or something similar over the crack.

1998 250WK #331
CILCIA
Steve
Pensacola, FL

Edited by - Tradewind on 01/22/2011 16:08:04

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 01/22/2011 : 16:48:08

You photos indicate that the stress cracking is all above the water line. If that is the case then you could grind out the cracks a bit using a Dremel and then epoxy the area. Marine-Tex would be a good choice.

The gel coat is not structural so as long as there is no water going into the rudder you should be OK. If the core is wet/soaked then you will have to dry it out before repairs.

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1519 Posts

Response Posted - 01/22/2011 : 17:19:54

Do you also have cracks where the 2 sides were joined or in the bottom half? Those would indicate a waterlogged rudder with severely compromised structural integrity.

You only showed photos of the top part.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 01/22/2011 : 17:29:07

Randy's right, again. You need to grind those out to see if they really are just cracks in the gelcoat. If there are cracks in the substrate, you have a much bigger problem. Look for cracks elswhere since water obeys the laws of gravity, it may well have traveled below the gelcoat to below the waterline. In Pensacola, you won't have the freeze/thaw problems but do you know that rudder hasn't lived above the Mason-Dixon?

Edited by - John Russell on 01/22/2011 17:29:41

Tradewind
Admiral

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USA
531 Posts

Response Posted - 01/22/2011 : 19:38:11

I've found no cracks below the lower bracket or other than what's in the photos, all above the water line. The boat was previously in GA and originally from South Carolina, been in Pensacola less than a year. First step then is to use the Dremel to remove the gelcoat, if the cracks are deeper then Dremel into the crack to check the depth. Dry and fill with marine tex.

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 01/23/2011 : 09:41:43

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Those would indicate a waterlogged rudder with severely compromised structural integrity.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I agree. It would seem that the gelcoat cracks take a particular route that would only appear from underlying stress. Looks like internal rudder problems to me.

Edited by - on

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3994 Posts

Response Posted - 01/23/2011 : 12:36:11

It could possibly be that someone overly tightened the forward bolts. Underneath the outer shell is foam so it is very easy to crush the outer shell if your not careful when tightening the bolts. The crack might not of happened when the bolts were tightened but later when the rudder was in use and the forces were put upon it. I would follow Randy suggestion except for the Marine Tex. Marine Tex when dry is brittle and the crack may reappear when you put the pintles back on and tighten the bolts. I would opt for something that when dry is a little more flexible like West System G/Flex Epoxy http://westsystem.com/ss/g-flex-epoxy You can tint it white.

Edited by - islander on 01/23/2011 13:06:53

Tradewind
Admiral

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USA
531 Posts

Response Posted - 01/23/2011 : 17:27:56

I scraped out all the loose gelcoat and the cracks go through the gelcoat and what ever is beneath the gelcoat, doesn't seem to be wet. The foam core is visible.

Opinions? Get a new rudder? Grind out the crack and glass it?

Edited by - on

islander
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3994 Posts

Response Posted - 01/24/2011 : 15:00:01

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Get a new rudder? Grind out the crack and glass it?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Depends on how handy you are and your fiberglassing skills also how deep your pockets are. If you have deep pockets well get a new rudder. If your handy I would cut about 1" outside all of the cracked area only as deep as the gelcoat/fiberglass not cutting into the foam on both sides of the rudder and across the leading edge then peal off the gelcoat and fiberglass exposing the foam. If the foam is not cracked and is intact just fiberglass it up again. If the foam is cracked and loose you could try to re-glue it back on and then fiberglass it or go the deep pockets route. I still think somebody really cranked down on the forward bolts.
Just an after thought..This damage could have been caused by an impact or grounding of the rudder enough to pull the bolts forward maybe?

Edited by - islander on 01/24/2011 15:12:56

Tradewind
Admiral

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531 Posts

Response Posted - 01/24/2011 : 17:53:26

The pockets aren't deep but when it becomes a safety issue I can dig deep enough. I'll talk to some boatyard friends and maybe get some help or advice on a possible repair. Meanwhile I'll shop around and price a new rudder. The boat has never been grounded since I've owned her and I've never tightened the bolts, may have been done by the PO.
I appreciate the advice and input, thanks.

Edited by - on

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 01/25/2011 : 13:03:20

Steve, I had this happen on my rudder the third week I had my boat. I purchased the boat new so it was a factory issue. They sent the dealer a new rudder and they transferred all the hardware. Five years later it happened again. The rudder is foam and will not absorb water so that is not a problem. If you take a close look at your bolt hole area, you notice it is crushed so the bolts were over tighten by someone. The repair is simple no matter how you do it. If you use marine tex you can not gelcoat over it, but a spray can plastic paint works fine. If you just do a epoxy repair then gelcoat can be applied. Just grind out the cracks. Try and not cut into the foam if possible, but a little bit won't hurt it. Take it slow, patience is the key, to insure everything gets cured before the next step.

Edited by - on

Tradewind
Admiral

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USA
531 Posts

Response Posted - 01/25/2011 : 15:17:16

Thanks frog, sounds like a plan, much cheaper than a new rudder.

Edited by - on

bill bosworth
Navigator

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USA
172 Posts

Response Posted - 01/25/2011 : 21:38:41

Steve;
I had a similar problem, similar cracks on a new 3rd gen rudder. I sent it back to Catalina for repair, it cracked again. I cut into the damaged area to remove the cracked gell coat. It appeared to me that the two halves of the rudder are made of fiberglass coated with gell coat, and that the two halves are bonded together using gell coat. Gell coat does not have much strength and under stess the gell coat cracks. I cut out the damaged material, and repaired the area using polyester resin reinforced with fiberglass fibers, often called gorilla hair, I then sanded the area flush and finished off with gell coat. After wetsanding the rudder looks as good as new. The best part is that we have sailed the boat hard for the past 4 or 5 years with no new cracks.
Best of luck.
Bill C250wb Serendipity on Kerr Lake, NC

Edited by - on

Tradewind
Admiral

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531 Posts

Response Posted - 01/27/2011 : 06:14:01

Thanks Bill, good advice, looks like fiberglass is the way to go.

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1519 Posts

Response Posted - 01/27/2011 : 06:38:08

I think it's really cool that you will be able to repair your rudder making use of this good advice and save yourself 6 boat units or so.

Happy sailing!

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9015 Posts

Response Posted - 01/27/2011 : 07:45:59

Is there evidence of the rudder grounding or hitting an object? That pattern strongly suggests to me that something pushed back hard against the pintle bolts. If it was grounded in sand, there might not be much evidence, but at a few knots, that rudder is not intended to stop a 5000+ lb. boat. Are there any cracks around the gudgeons--inside or out?

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 01/27/2011 07:50:49

Tradewind
Admiral

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531 Posts

Response Posted - 01/28/2011 : 10:14:26

Dave, no other evidence of damage anywhere, never grounded since I've owned her. Cracks were first noticed in 2009, she's been on the trailer since May 2010. No cracks or evidence of anything abnormal around the gudgeons inside or out.

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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2015 Posts

Response Posted - 01/28/2011 : 10:51:32

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Is there evidence of the rudder grounding or hitting an object? That pattern strongly suggests to me that something pushed back hard against the pintle bolts <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I was thinking that would be the ONLY way damage of that pattern could happen but I guess If Bill Bosworth had the exact same deal going on ....
BUT it does really suck to loose a rudder, I'd test it with some major stress to be sure I could trust it.

Edited by - on

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2269 Posts

Response Posted - 01/28/2011 : 12:37:05

I don't understand this tendency of people (whether boatyards or DIY owners) to over-tighten those bolts. The rudder needs to move freely side-to-side without falling off the gudgeons or wobbling on the pintles. Any tighter and you're just risking damaging the gelcoat as shown in the pictures.

DISCLAIMER: This is my own personal, non-expert opinion. If someone else know why these bolts need to be cranked down tighter, please explain why.

Edited by - on

Tradewind
Admiral

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531 Posts

Response Posted - 01/28/2011 : 18:58:35

The PO replaced the original rudder with this Gen 3 rudder, the problem may have started there. Those bolts do not need to be torqued down, just secure. I'll try the fiberglass repair, may not look like it came from the factory.

Edited by - on

Tradewind
Admiral

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USA
531 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2011 : 14:52:37

Marinetex repair lasted maybe a month, been sailing all summer with the crack showing. This winter I'll repair with fiberglass or replace.

Anyone have any experience with the HDPE solid rudder sold on Catalina Direct?

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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2015 Posts

Response Posted - 11/30/2011 : 16:36:42

I'm REALLY surprised it lasted a month. I wouldn't leave the dock with it unless I had a backup. Maybe because the tiller connects with the back of the rudder and the pintle (hinge?) continues across the rudder to the second bolt and farther it has enough bite and distributes the stress enough to not break. I still think you've been lucky.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 12/01/2011 : 14:27:42

We bought the HDPE rudder from IdaSailor last year. It is the one that CD sells. Very happy with it. It is balanced and requires less force to maintain steering in strong winds. It is also a long rudder, not for WB 250's, which helps when heeled over.

Edited by - on

Tradewind
Admiral

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USA
531 Posts

Response Posted - 12/02/2011 : 07:26:12

Thanks for the input. I'm going to talk to a professional fiberglass repair shop at the shipyard and decide which way to go, repair or replace with the HDPE.

Edited by - on

John Russell
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3444 Posts

Response Posted - 12/02/2011 : 07:41:50

I have an HDPE kick-up rudder. I like that I don't have these kinds of worries.

Edited by - on

TakeFive
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2269 Posts

Response Posted - 12/02/2011 : 14:04:02

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Tradewind
 Thanks for the input. I'm going to talk to a professional fiberglass repair shop at the shipyard and decide which way to go, repair or replace with the HDPE.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
A few comments and questions:

Is there a reason why you are not considering a fiberglass replacement from Catalina? HDPE has some advantages, but is not a perfect material either.

It looks like the cracking could have started at the pintle bolt holes. Once those spider cracks start propagating out, there's almost no way to stop them. They'll follow the path of least resistance, which in your case was probably upward and downward along the seam.

It's also possible this was heat damage. I had initially assumed that your boat is in the water all the time, but noticed after rereading that you had it on a trailer for an extended period. Note this warning from the CatalinaDirect site: Caution: Never leave any rudder sitting in the sun in the back of your pickup. With half the rudder immersed while moored, water will dissipate any heat buildup. But while stored, heat may damage the rudder. A Fiberglass rudder may expand and split at the seams. A polyethylene rudder may warp. Always store your rudder out of the direct sun.

My 3rd generation rudder was replaced 2 years ago by the PO. FWIW, my Catalina-supplied fiberglass rudder does not have the pointed front edge like yours has. That point on yours is so sharp that it looks like there may be a separate piece in the core to form the point, and the fracture could have been along the seam between the front edge piece and the foam core. You might want to inquire with Catalina about the reason for the design change. One could speculate about changes being due to moving production from California to Florida.

If you wanted to try another repair and didn't care about cosmetic appearance, this looks like you could fix it with some fiberglass cloth impregnated with epoxy. I've done this before on interior bulkheads of my Trophy boat, and it's not difficult. You would need to paint the repair because epoxy has poor UV resistance.

Edited by - on

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