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Sailing in the Philadelphia area

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JimGo
Admiral

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USA
962 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/13/2011 : 07:09:24

Well, my boat should be out of the water (need to call the marina to confirm) for the season. She still needs to be covered, but I think I can handle that. So, the next issue is where to keep her next season. I realize I have time to make a decision, but I'd like to start narrowing down the prospects so that we can more easily make the final decision.

We live West of Philadelphia, near where 476 meets the PA Turnpike. We can get head East on the turnpike and get to the Delaware river North of the city in about 30-45 minutes, with traffic. We can get to the Essington and Chester areas (South of the city) in about the same time. The Brick/Toms River areas of NJ are about an hour and a half East of us (without traffic; haven't tried that trip in the summer), and puts us on Barnegat Bay. The Somers Point/Ocean City area is about 2-2.5 hours away, depeding on traffic, and puts us on Great Egg Harbor. Cape May Courthouse is about 2 hours away, too, and gives us access to the Delaware Bay. The Elkton, MD area is about an hour and a half away, and would put us on the upper reaches of the Chessepeake.

My wife "gets seasick on a waterbed", so she's not really inclined to sleep on the boat. Ideally, then, we'd like to keep the boat either close(ish) to our house or close(ish) to my in-law's condo in Avalon, NJ. As I'm envisioning it, if we keep the boat at the "shore" (i.e., anywhere but in the Delaware), we'll be going to Avalon for the weekend, with a (several hour) stop-over at the boat. For example, leave early Saturday morning, go out sailing, stop off in Ocean City, NJ for rides and dinner, then head to Avalon and go to the beach on Sunday, or vice-versa. That makes Elkton (and the Chessepeake in general) less appealing than some of the other destinations, since it's about a 2 hour drive from Elkton to Avalon.

For those who have sailed in the Philadelphia area, where would you go? Has anyone sailed the Eastern stretches of the Delaware Bay? How does it compare to Barnegat Bay and Great Egg Harbor from a "comfort" perspective? Is it always choppy, or is it that it "can be" choppy at times?

I know the Delaware river in the Philly area has large tidal swings, has a fairly strong current, and is pretty popular with power boaters. I think I can deal with the tidal swings. The current makes things a little less appealing, though I guess you learn to live with it. How about the power boaters; are they really bad and overcrowd the river? Any worse than, for example, Barnegat Bay or Great Egg Harbor?

How is Barnegat Bay in the summer? It seems nice now, but in season I'm afraid there will be thousands of power boats clogging the bay and making it difficult to enjoy a day of sailing. How choppy does Barnegat Bay get? The few times I've been out, it seems to be pretty flat except for the wakes from passing boats.

RhythmDoctor, I read your threads from 2 years ago on Sailnet - it sounds like you had similar concerns, so I'd be especially interested in your feedback.

Thanks in advance for any feedback!

- Jim
Formerly of 1984 C25 named Dragon Wing

NOTE: In my case, PLEASE don't confuse stars/number of posts with actual knowledge. On any topic.

Edited by - on

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2269 Posts

Response Posted - 10/13/2011 : 07:52:20

Jim - I only have a couple minutes, but can give you a couple tips to get you going on more Delaware River alternatives.

First, I have never had a problem with too many pleasure boats of any type on may part of the Delaware. It's just never that crowded. Maybe it is closer to Philly, but not near Essington. There are always a couple guys who pass you a little closer than you'd like, or the ones who try to accommodate you - but actually make things worse - by slowing down just below plane speed (which creates the MAXIMUM wake). But you get those anywhere. There are some reasons to dislike the Delaware, but too many pleasure boats is not one of them. There is some large freighter and barge traffic that you need to look out for, though. My recent Mainsheet articles provide info on using technology to help alleviate that.

If you're considering the Delaware, you should also look into Riverside, NJ. That area is very popular with sailboats. Winter's Sailing Center is a large marina (and huge Catalina dealer) devoted exclusively to sailboats. Riverside Marina next to them is also owned by the Winters family, and 2 years ago I thought their personnel were more friendly and accommodating than the people at Winters. But people change over time, so YMMV. That part of the Delaware is narrower than Essington, but maybe a little more scenic.

[url="http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=2657"]Contact Joe Lanutti[/url] for more info. [url="http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=24055"]He's selling his C250WB[/url] right now, but he's been at Winters for several years, so knows that area real well. I don't know whether he's upgrading to a bigger boat or taking a break from sailing.

There might also be other options that are quicker for you to get to on the PA side of the river. (Neshaminy Creek? Anchor Yacht Club?) Joe might know about that.

There's also Philadelphia Marine Center right in Penns Landing. I'm sure it's expensive, but it could be pretty neat to hang out on your boat right in the middle of the city.

Edited by - TakeFive on 10/14/2011 12:59:50

pfduffy
Captain

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USA
317 Posts

Response Posted - 10/13/2011 : 08:52:43

Jim - as you know, I sail the Barnegat. I have also done a little bit of sailing on the Delaware in Riverton, NJ on an O'Day Mariner. I prefer the Barnegat because we generally get a decent ocean breeze even during late July and August. Also, tide and currents don't really come into play. The downside is that there are some shallows, but that's why we have the SK - right!

There is some significant motorboat traffic on the weekends in the summer. I exit the Lanoka Harbor channel just north of marker #40 and sometimes it feels like trying to cross the Schuykill Expressway during rush hour.

Moving a little south of the Toms river can cut some time from your commute to the Barnegat (assuming you are taking Rt 70 across NJ) since you can avoid most of the Seaside Heights traffic.

Edited by - on

JimGo
Admiral

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USA
962 Posts

Response Posted - 10/13/2011 : 10:11:38

Pat, I haven't tried taking 70; my GPS has always taken me out the PA Turnpike to the NJTP North to 195, then back South on the GS Parkway. I've looked at 70 a few times on the map, but have always been worried that there were a lot of traffic lights or low speed zones. Sounds like maybe I should try that on Sunday when I head out to the boat.

Rick, thanks for the feedback on the Delaware, too. I've sent an E-mail to Joe; hopefully he will chime in either by E-mail or directly in this thread.

Have either of you tried sailing down in the Delaware Bay? I realize it's a bit of a haul for each of you, but thought I'd ask.

Edited by - on

gpc
Deckhand

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17 Posts

Response Posted - 10/13/2011 : 10:39:01

Jim,
I am located about 10 minutes southwest of the KOP Mall. I have only had my C-250 for this season, but I keep it in Havre de Grace, MD. It takes me just over an hour to get down there, and its hard to beat the Chesapeake. That said, the 60+ minute drive (each way) has kept me away from the boat a few times more than I would have liked.

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1519 Posts

Response Posted - 10/13/2011 : 10:45:02

Jim,
The northeastern head of the Chesapeake, such as the head of the Elk River at Elkton, MD, is not navigable except for the mouth of the river or the channel that runs into the Cheseapeake and Delaware Canal. Sailing in a canal is not like sailing on a bay.

The northern head of the Bay is similarly very shallow at the town of Northeast, MD, over towards the west at the mouth of the Susquehanna River. There is a channel that runs down the Bay from the Susquehanna, but sailing there is very limited compared to further south. The head of the Bay is a broad area of shallow water since it forms the river delta of the mighty Susquehanna.

The fun part of the Chesapeake extends the whole 100-mile length of the Bay starting at about Baltimore on the western shore or at about Turkey Point at the mouth of the Elk River on the eastern shore, and it would be worth driving the 2.5 hours to get from your home to your boat if you kept it anywhere south of those places. But those would be a long drive for a weekend sail!

Looks like the Jersey shore is a more reasonable option for you.

Edited by - JohnP on 10/13/2011 10:52:20

JimGo
Admiral

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USA
962 Posts

Response Posted - 10/13/2011 : 10:55:22

Thanks! When I was looking at boats, a few were in the North East area. That seemed pretty and "not too far", but if the conditions aren't that great (or at least not significantly better than my other options), then I think you are right, and I will focus more on the Delaware river and NJ shore.

I still haven't found anything from prople who sail the Delaware bay. I know they are out there - Bayway Marina has a fair number of sailboats, for example. But I still worry that the Delaware Bay will be "too much" for us our first year. The location is almost perfect...

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1519 Posts

Response Posted - 10/13/2011 : 11:09:57

Jim,
You can easily predict the kind of sailing you would do anywhere on the coast of the US or on the Great Lakes by getting the local [url="http://www.nauticalcharts.noaa.gov/mcd/OnLineViewer.html"]NOAA chart[/url].

[url="http://www.charts.noaa.gov/OnLineViewer/12274.shtml"]Head of the Chesapeake Bay[/url]

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 10/13/2011 : 12:04:43

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimGo
 I still haven't found anything from prople who sail the Delaware bay. I know they are out there - Bayway Marina has a fair number of sailboats, for example. But I still worry that the Delaware Bay will be "too much" for us our first year. The location is almost perfect...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Since you haven't received a response yet, I'll offer what I know about the Delaware Bay, which isn't very much. I sailed once through the C&D Canal and up the Delaware Bay to Cape May. The trip had to be timed to coincide with the tides, because the tidal currents were so strong that, when they turned against you, they greatly impeded your progress. We got close to Cape May when the tide turned against us, and we anchored for the night in the Bay. From my limited experience there, it doesn't seem like a good place for a new sailor. It might be that, as you get further into the bay, the tides abate.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 10/13/2011 12:06:09

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2269 Posts

Response Posted - 10/13/2011 : 15:32:06

You're going through much the same process I did two years ago when I was shopping for my boat. There is no single right answer to the question of where to sail. I knew my sailing would be much less frequent if I was >1 hour from home, and wanted to be able to go out on impulse. So close to home was really important for me.

Search for some of [url="http://www.sailnet.com/forums/members/ulladh.html"]this guy's[/url] messages on Sailnet. He keeps his boat in Essington (Fox's Grove Marina), but goes down into the Delaware Bay for a couple weeks most years. He knows the lower bay as well as anyone, and he's a great guy. Here are a couple of recent threads:

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/general-discussion-sailing-related/75724-delaware-bay-sail-trip.html

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/general-discussion-sailing-related/72164-delaware-river-bay-nj-shore-get-together.html

As for currents on the Delaware, I've never sailed south of the C&D canal, but I've checked the current charts, and the tides and currents look to be every bit as strong on the upper Delaware as the Del Bay area. You can see it in the shape of the river - the large bay at the mouth funnels the tides into the narrow river, and all that water has nowhere to go but up (tidal swings) and faster (currents). You just get used to it, and check the tables and the wind direction, and if you're a daysailor plan your route to make sure you don't ever find yourself against both wind and current at the same time. If you mess up, the motor will bail you out, but slowly.

Checking the charts can save you a lot of driving around. I use SeaClear for browsing the charts on the desktop, and OpenCPN for use in the cockpit.

The general wisdom is that you must get south of Turkey Point to sail the Chesapeake, and that driving the extra distance down to Rock Hall is worth it because you can sail north, south, or west. However, with a low draft boat the Bohemia River may be worth considering, and considerably closer than Rock Hall. I've been told (and confirmed by looking at the charts) that there's enough room for a small sailboat to do short daysails, and Turkey Point is only a couple of hours of sailing/motoring away if you want to get to the Ches Bay for a long day or weekend. I don't know much about the marinas there, except you should avoid Bohemia Vista and/or Two Rivers because your boat will get beat up in the unguarded fetch.

Edited by - TakeFive on 10/13/2011 16:42:42

glivs
Admiral

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USA
822 Posts

Response Posted - 10/13/2011 : 17:52:14

Rick (RhythmDoctor) - I did not received the last Mainsheet issue but did want to read your AIS article you mention in this thread. I tried contacting the association officers (Membership forum) and sending you email directly through the forum but neither with success. Any chance I could get a copy of your article (pdf, MSWord, hardcopy...)? If so, plz forward or contact me at glivs at co mc ast dot net (coding obvious I hope). Thanks. Oh...and yes I am a standing member of the association.

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 10/13/2011 : 18:51:22

Jim,

I saw sailnet.com mentioned in your spotless stainless thread. That would also be a good reference for this thread. It's a friendly group with a lot of participation - also covering a large geographic area.

Just like us - only more users!

Edited by - OJ on 10/13/2011 18:51:46

JimGo
Admiral

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USA
962 Posts

Response Posted - 10/13/2011 : 19:09:08

Thanks OJ, maybe I'll try over there, too. The information I've gotten here has been great!

Rick, thanks for the detailed responses. I'll head over to Sailnet and read more of his posts.

Steve Milby, thanks for the info!

Edited by - JimGo on 10/13/2011 19:15:03

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 10/13/2011 : 19:29:58

Regarding Rick's comment about freighter and tug-barge traffic, be aware that they (especially freighters) close on you a lot faster than you might think they will. Their size creates an optical illusion of moving slowly, while their speed, which will be 15-20 kts in tighter areas and 25+ in open water, will surprise you. Know their channels and lanes on the chart and plan your avoidance as early as possible. If in doubt about where they're headed, hail "southbound red freighter near Chester" and ask (probably on Ch. 13). They might be making "security" calls on that channel to broadcast their intentions.

Edited by - on

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 10/14/2011 : 22:03:44

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by OJ
 Jim,

I saw sailnet.com mentioned in your spotless stainless thread. That would also be a good reference for this thread. It's a friendly group with a lot of participation - also covering a large geographic area.

Just like us - only more users!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Sailnet does get a larger and more diverse audience, so it's good for general sailing questions. Overall it's a friendly place, but people can get testy over their very strong opinions. I think that's largely because of the larger audience (opinions are more likely to "collide") and the greater diversity (racers, cruisers, daysailors). Over here we all have pretty much similar boats, which leads to similar sailing objectives. This is a much more supportive environment for controversial opinions and/or naive questions. Over there, everything has the potential to turn into an argument, even something as mundane as what kind of fender to use. If you want to guarantee a big fight, just mention that you plan to bed some fittings with silocone caulk.

Sailnet appears to have recently cracked down on some of the "holier than thou" types, which has made it a better or worse place, depending on your tolerance for conflict.

Edited by - TakeFive on 10/14/2011 22:12:29

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 10/15/2011 : 02:21:14

Sailnet also allows heated and endless debates over politics, and I think the animosities that it generates spills over into discussions about sailing. This forum doesn't allow political discussions, and I think it contributes to a more civil tone. If folks want to talk politics, there are lots of other places to do so.

(Yes, I am up very early this morning. I'm racing in the Constellation Cup race today!

)

Edited by - Steve Milby on 10/15/2011 02:28:04

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 10/15/2011 : 08:49:16

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 Sailnet also allows heated and endless debates over politics... This forum doesn't allow political discussions...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Thank goodness for that! It can ruin a forum, a dinner party, and even a day on the water! (...says the progressive from his part-time bunker in arch-conservative Darien, CT.

)

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 10/15/2011 08:51:28

JimGo
Admiral

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USA
962 Posts

Response Posted - 10/15/2011 : 21:13:03

She's not out of the water yet, which is a bit disappointing. The marina owner said to take the roller-furled head sail off before he will pull her. Is this normal? I guess its a safety thing, to keep me from turning my high-and-dry boat into a makeshift kite. I wish I had known, would have done it last weekend. can't get out there this weekend, and next weekend is iffy too, so this could be interesting.

Edited by - on

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 10/15/2011 : 21:28:30

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimGo
 ...The marina owner said to take the roller-furled head sail off before he will pull her. Is this normal? I guess its a safety thing, to keep me from turning my high-and-dry boat into a makeshift kite...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I know of other marina, including Winters, that have this requirement. But I put the sails back on in the spring while on the hard, and it caused no problem at all.

But the reason is exactly what you said. You don't want this to happen:

<center>

</center>

By the way, this was not caused by the headsail being up. As best as I could tell, the stands were improperly chained and subject to broadside windage from the river. This made me glad I dropped my mast for the winter - search "gin pole" for info on how best to do this.

Edited by - TakeFive on 10/15/2011 21:29:57

Frank Law
Navigator

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USA
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Response Posted - 10/17/2011 : 18:18:32

Food for thought about Lower Delaware river/bay .. There are some sailboats that stay on the Cohansy or Maurice river (not sure which one) in New Jersey below Salem nuclear plant . Ive seen them docked there but have NO knowledge of the area.. Regarding the Bohemia River in Upper Chesapeake bay ,,there are a lot of sailboats in the 5 marinas on the Bohemia .. The time distance is closer to 1 hour to Turkey Point and open water.. The Bohemia River is about 12 miles south of Elkton Md.

Frank Law
" About Time"
3519 1983
SR , SWK

Edited by - on

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 10/17/2011 : 19:45:44

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Frank Law
 ...Regarding the Bohemia River in Upper Chesapeake bay ,,there are a lot of sailboats in the 5 marinas on the Bohemia .. The time distance is closer to 1 hour to Turkey Point and open water..<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Good point! From close to the mouth it would be only about an hour. I was calculating the time from further up the river, closer to the bridge.

Edited by - on

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