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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Madison, Milwaukee area - a word of advice?

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pmwhitehead
Deckhand

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5 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/27/2014 : 13:21:18

Hello. First post.

I live in north central Illinois and am considering buying a boat. The two I am looking at most closely are the Catalina25 and the S2 7.9. I'm sharpening my sailing skills and am about ready to get my own boat. I've never sailed a Catalina, and am wondering if anyone would be willing to have me along for an afternoon. It's getting late in the season, but hopefully someone will still have one in the water.

I'm looking into a swing keel so that I can dry sail. I have launched power boats, but not a sail boat. I'm curious about the whole experience, from setting the mast, launching, sailing and recovering. I'd like to actually do these things before buying a boat so I can make a decision if I'd rather buy, or join one of the "time share" clubs in madison or milwaukee. I'll pay you the going rental rate if you are willing to take me out with you.

Thanks!
Patrick

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9014 Posts

Response Posted - 09/27/2014 : 15:25:58

You're talking about what's commonly called "trailer sailing", and I will offer the opinion that the C-25 is not a trailer-sailer. If you're envisioning launching, sailing, and retrieving during one day, you'll spend half of that day on all but the sailing part, and you'll need some help--at least a couple of guys to get the mast up. I know there are a few people here who have honed the process into a single-handed exercise they can do in a shorter time than I can imagine, but that isn't likely to happen to you for a few years.

If you're thinking of launching for a few days, then the calculus changes...

The C-25 is what I call a "transportable" boat--within wide load limits and ramp-launchable (swing or wing keel). IMHO, the largest reasonable trailer-sailer is 22-23'. If you're not overnighting, 18-20' is even better--you can typically be in the water in half an hour, and out and ready to roll in about the same. Your time on the water will easily exceed your time in the parking lot.

Again, my opinion... Some may disagree, and YMMV. If you do go toward a C-25, think about a wing keel--only a couple of inches deeper than the raised swinger, but without the maintenance or other issues associated with a 1500# moveable hunk of iron. The wing was a factory option starting in about 1987, and was available to retrofit older swing keel boats. More than a few people did the retrofit. (It is no longer available.)

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/27/2014 15:35:14

pmwhitehead
Deckhand

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5 Posts

Response Posted - 09/28/2014 : 05:48:28

Hi Stinkpotter.

Thanks for your input. Could you elaborate on why a 23' boat would be easier to trailer? Is it overall weight? I should say that I know how to sail and navigate, but I have never dealt with the logistics such as stepping a mast or trailer launching a sail boat. My family is from the mystic area, and I spent summers watching some of these things, but never actually doing. Also, I have a friend, locally, who is a very competent E Scow sailor but he doesn't have a ton of experience on cruisers.

Edited by - pmwhitehead on 09/28/2014 05:50:40

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 09/28/2014 : 07:33:13

Perhaps "dry docking" (left on a trailer at a marina, mast up, sails and outboard remain attached) is an option. We find ourselves pretty pooped after sailing for a few hours on a breezy day. I think you would quickly find towing, commissioning and decommissioning in a single day pretty darn ambitious. There is also a certain amount of wear and tear on hardware (boat, trailer, tow vehicle) everytime you commission and decommission. Most, if not all, of us can share stories of personal injuries (experienced or witnessed) during the process as well.
Indeed, even though wings are few and far between, the reduction in maintenance (no cable, winch, hinge hardware or rust to deal with) is a real plus. The benefits of the advice found on this web forum - priceless.

Edited by - OJ on 09/28/2014 08:14:29

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9014 Posts

Response Posted - 09/28/2014 : 08:00:42

I should say this... I was 55 when we bought our standard rig C-25, having owned a 17' Daysailer for 20 years, on which we stepped and unstepped the mast on the trailer many times by me walking it up or down in the cockpit while my wife managed the stays from the ground. We slipped the C-25 and had the mast stepped and unstepped each year by the rigger at a boatyard. There, I worked on the mast enough to be very happy I didn't have to raise and lower it as we did on our Daysailer.

Many folks here have built A-frame systems for this task. Some perform it single-handed--I commend them. But if it were part of my daily sailing program, I think I'd soon find an alternative. It has to do with weight, time, risk, and necessity (the mother of...)

All things are relative. I see you're in your 30s. I don't know where you live relative to sailing waters or your options for mooring/slipping a boat. I haven't raised a C-25 mast myself. I can only summarize what I've gathered from this forum--that it's a project some deal with and others don't want to. Use our Search (upper-right), looking for "A-frame" in the C-25 forum. Trailer-sailing (rigging and derigging) is possible with a C-25, a little beyond reasonable with a C-27, and virtually impossible with a C-30... but much more manageable with a C-22, and done every day with 17-20' boats I see in launching areas. There is no clear line.

The overall boat weight mostly relates to the tow vehicle issue--an ongoing debate you can search for here, but a significant consideration.

So I've said too much, with too little personal experience. I'm just waving the Caution flag. Time for somebody else.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/28/2014 08:27:20

Kper
Captain

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USA
417 Posts

Response Posted - 09/28/2014 : 16:57:53

I would agree that raising the mast , and lowering, with a gin pole is a several hour task from start to finish - just hauled ours out and lowered the mast ourselves with a gin pole. If we keep our C25 long enough (we really want to move up) I may consider looking into all that's required to raise/ lower it ourselves without assistance from the marina.

I wouldn't be so quick to discount the swing keels, they are, by the way, considerably cheaper than wings in most cases and from what I hear they perform a bit better. We originally wanted a WK but I don't regret the purchase of our SK. We couldn't have touched a WK for 3 times what we paid for our SK.

Best of luck in your endevours.

Edited by - on

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2269 Posts

Response Posted - 09/28/2014 : 20:39:25

I have little boats that I trailer, and my C250 that I have ZERO interest in trailering. I drop the mast once a year while storing on the hard, but that's it.

If you want a 25' sailboat, my advice is rent a slip or mooring ball. There is no way you will enjoy sailing if you have to launch and retrieve every time you go out for a daysail.

If you find a place that will allow you to store the boat on the trailer with the mast up (basically a parking lot right next to the boat ramp) then that might be acceptable.

Also, if you launch for several days of cruising, that might be acceptable.

But launching and retrieving every time will suck all the fun out of it for you.

Edited by - TakeFive on 09/29/2014 07:39:13

dasreboot
Admiral

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803 Posts

Response Posted - 09/29/2014 : 05:54:32

if you want a trailerable 25 footer. seawards are supposed to be easy to trailer, also macgregors (GASP!) are easy to rig and launch.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9014 Posts

Response Posted - 09/29/2014 : 09:45:40

quote:
Originally posted by dasreboot

...seawards are supposed to be easy to trailer...

...because of their daggerboards or shallow wings. Their mast and rig is probably no easier.

quote:
...also macgregors (GASP!) are easy to rig and launch.

Come on--he's a sailor!

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/29/2014 09:47:28

pmwhitehead
Deckhand

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5 Posts

Response Posted - 09/29/2014 : 14:37:14

I really do appreciate all of the feedback. Thank you. I've checked up on slip rentals and winter storage in Milwaukee. A slip is about $2k, and outdoor trailer storage about $450. I didn't ask, but I don't think that includes shrink wrap. Also, the marina I called owned a brewery and pub, so If I spend ~2.5k I'd get ~$500 in pub and restaurant credit. On the face of it, it seems like a reasonably square deal. Additionally, I wouldn't have to screw with constantly rigging the boat, I don't need to purchase/maintain a tow vehicle, and I can have a fixed keel boat without having to worry about transportation. Thoughts?

Edited by - on

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 09/29/2014 : 15:07:52

quote:
Originally posted by pmwhitehead

I really do appreciate all of the feedback. Thank you. I've checked up on slip rentals and winter storage in Milwaukee. A slip is about $2k, and outdoor trailer storage about $450. I didn't ask, but I don't think that includes shrink wrap. Also, the marina I called owned a brewery and pub, so If I spend ~2.5k I'd get ~$500 in pub and restaurant credit. On the face of it, it seems like a reasonably square deal. Additionally, I wouldn't have to screw with constantly rigging the boat, I don't need to purchase/maintain a tow vehicle, and I can have a fixed keel boat without having to worry about transportation. Thoughts?

Now you're thinking the way I think.

You could save $450 a year storage (and the up-front cost of a trailer) by purchasing boat stands instead of a trailer. They usually nest nicely for easy storage, if you have a way to get them home during the season. ($20/hour for a flat bed truck at most Home Depot stores) Another option, of course, is to find a boat yard that will provide the stands to you as part of their winter storage fee. [EDIT: Oops, I think I misunderstood what the $450 is for. I mistakenly assumed that they wanted that much to store your empty trailer while the boat is in the slip. I guess that if you had planned to store the boat at your house, you could store the empty trailer there instead.]

There are many debates over shrinkwrap. Most shrinkwrap installs are not vented properly, trapping moisture and heat which lead to mold. I know a couple people who really messed up their boats this way. I drop the mast and add some PVC pip, and a sawhorse to support an inexpensive tarp, which keeps rain/snow/UV off the boat but allows air to circulate.

There's no one right/wrong way to do this. They're all options with various tradeoffs and costs.

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Edited by - TakeFive on 09/29/2014 15:24:50

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9014 Posts

Response Posted - 09/29/2014 : 20:34:47

A slip is a huge enhancement to the whole boat ownership experience. I don't know your financial situation, but $1500 (net) sounds pretty good. What is the cost of storage on stands (so you don't have to own a trailer)? Are you close enough to Milwaukee that you'll take advantage of having it in the water there? I always felt I didn't want a boat to own me--I wanted to feel free to use or not use it at any time--no amortizing annual costs per time out!

I didn't cover our C-25 in winter--just shoveled out the cockpit now and then, and the rest melted, blew or fell off. It never seemed to cause problems, but Milwaukee probably has more snow than CT. A tarp from the mast to a little past the transom should take care of her. I suspect that storage quote doesn't include shrinkwrap, which costs about that much here.

Edited by - on

Jack Schafer
Navigator

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USA
112 Posts

Response Posted - 09/30/2014 : 18:24:10

Patrick, I live in Lake Geneva, Wi. I keep 2ndWind in a slip at our association. I have stored outside for 20 years and have had no problems. I remove everything and cover with a heavy duty plastic tarp. I check for snow build up monthly.
Rigging the 250 is not that difficult but would not want to do it everytime i went sailing. They are built to trailer sail.
I am pulling it in 2 weeks. Always looking to sail. Come and check it out.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9014 Posts

Response Posted - 09/30/2014 : 20:27:32

I should mention that I didn't leave Passage uncovered due to laziness... She was stored in an open boatyard on Long Island Sound, where strong winter winds whipped through making a cacophony of rattling and banging of plastic tarps with metal eyelets. I couldn't help thinking that couldn't be good on gelcoat, teak, etc., compared to just wind and snow. Shrinkwrap is another thing (very tight and solid), but most sailboats were stored mast up (making shrinkwrap almost impossible), and most weren't tarped--probably for the reason I didn't cover mine.

Edited by - on

pmwhitehead
Deckhand

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5 Posts

Response Posted - 10/01/2014 : 08:12:35

quote:
Originally posted by Jack Schafer

Patrick, I live in Lake Geneva, Wi. I keep 2ndWind in a slip at our association. I have stored outside for 20 years and have had no problems. I remove everything and cover with a heavy duty plastic tarp. I check for snow build up monthly.
Rigging the 250 is not that difficult but would not want to do it everytime i went sailing. They are built to trailer sail.
I am pulling it in 2 weeks. Always looking to sail. Come and check it out.

Thanks Jack! Sent you a private message.

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5232 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2014 : 21:28:58

Dave - I cover the cockpit from the mast to the transom with a dark green tarp that has plastic rather than metal grommets. I pass the tie-down lines from the outside to inside so the line is up against the hull, not the grommets. This keeps snow off the cabin top, the pop top and out of the cockpit. I just like having the tent up so I can visit Passage even in winter to check on it. I can do a lot of cleaning during the day when the sun warms the dark green tarp and gets the temp above freezing in the cabin. I leave the mast up - no point bringing it down unless I need to fix something up above.

Edited by - on

Voyager
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USA
5232 Posts

Response Posted - 10/04/2014 : 11:04:20

I've trailered on a 16 ft AMF Alcort Sunbird daysailor for years - with the diversity of sailing areas in CT I could visit a different boat launch every weekend in the summer and still have plenty left over. At one point, my wife said, "Do you really like messing around with the mast every time you launch and retrieve, or would you prefer to have a boat on a slip and just get on it and sail?" "It would save you about an hour on each end, so you'd have a lot more time to enjoy sailing, or just sitting around at the dock". She finished by saying, "you're not getting any younger so while you still have time, GO FER IT! It won't really cost you that much more compared to what you spend today."
That's when I started looking for Passage. I've kept the boat on a slip for the first couple of years - which was great. I've still got a bunch of boating buddies from that time. In the past few years I've opted for a less expensive floating platform out in the river (can't walk out, have to paddle out). Nonetheless, I have regular neighbors, I see and talk to the same folks all summer long. We raft up out in the bay, we share refreshments on one anothers' boats, and share our experiences sitting in the gazebo and under picnic shelters at the dinghy dock.
I miss being able to visit a lot of different places - lakes, distant bays, rivers, etc. That's why I have my kayak and register my daysailor each year. My son and I sometimes use it while camping, and we take it on vacation when we visit my family in New Hampshire.

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