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Can you sheet a 110% jib inboard?

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Ian Brisbane
1st Mate

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Australia
37 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/14/2013 : 00:11:58

Hi All

Looking at a 110 jib in the hope that it can sheet effectively inboard? Does anyone currently do it that way? My current sail is a 135 and most if the time it is somewhat furled so loses shape and as it is sheeted outside the shrouds it points poorly as I can't sheet it in properly.

Any advice or feedback from the knowledge bank would be appreciated

Cheers Ian

Ian Richardson
C250 Fin Keel TR #277
Sailing Moreton Bay QLD (OZ)

Edited by - on

britinusa
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USA
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Response Posted - 07/14/2013 : 06:32:46

Ian, we have a 110% furled jib.

If we ever make the mistake of running the sheet lines inside the shrouds, we are quickly alerted to the problem when we turn off the wind. The sheets now snag on the shrouds.

Our jib tracks point directly at the shrouds and we can sheet the jib in pretty tight with the sheets outside of everything (flag halyards, shrouds, lifelines).

Paul

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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 07/14/2013 : 07:52:40

Can you improve things by moving the cars? In light air, you want them forward to tighten the leech while loosening the foot and make the sail fuller--in heavier air, aft to flatten the lower area and allow the top to twist a little.

I've heard of somebody having two sets of sheets, one inside and one outside... Off the wind, they'd slacken the inside sheet and use the outside--on a beat, the opposite. The slack sheet would be turned around the shroud. Never tried it so can't recommend it...

One comment though... One of the most important keys to pointing is speed, which generates lift. And often the key to speed is keeping the foresail powered up even as you depower or even reef the main. Going slower with a super-flat genny and the boat aimed as high as possible can look like you're pointing, but your leeway is probably greater, so your actual course is probably worse. You can see the difference between GPS tracks, and by measuring your VMG to a distant point dead upwind (true wind).

Are you reefing your main before you "somewhat furl" your genny?

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 07/14/2013 07:55:14

britinusa
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Response Posted - 07/14/2013 : 11:29:22

We (I) manage the sail trim almost constantly. So I will adjust the jib cars to suit the wind as you mention Dave. "Go forward lightly, come back fast"

FYI, we have a 150% jib in a bag, but have only used it twice as the winds in our area are rarely predicted to be light for the duration of our 3-4 day trips. Changing out the jib is a pain (hence the furler). If the wind does lighten up, I'll take every opportunity to get the Asym flying.

Paul

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TakeFive
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Response Posted - 07/14/2013 : 11:43:38

OP should remember that the answer to his question could vary with the specific boat. Many water ballast models have the chainplates further outboard, attached to the hull-deck joint (see pics below). Wing keels are typically attached inside the molded fiberglass toe rail. Inboard sheeting would be a lot more viable (and perhaps necessary) on the water ballast boats.

Your fin keel model might be different from both of these - I haven't seen one so can't comment. Where are your chainplates mounted?

Note that C25 rigging is totally different, and virtually irrelevant.

Ultimately your best answer may come from trying it yourself and reporting back to the rest of us. It would only take a few minutes to test the concept.

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Edited by - TakeFive on 07/14/2013 11:45:29

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 07/14/2013 : 12:48:47

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by TakeFive
 ...Many water ballast models have the chainplates further outboard, attached to the hull-deck joint... Wing keels are typically attached inside the molded fiberglass toe rail...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">...and sometime around the millennium, WK models got chainplates on the cabintop and shorter spreaders for closer sheeting of the commonly-used 135. I saw a 250 FK here in CT and took some pix (because I figured nobody here would believe me)--I can't see where the chainplates are.

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britinusa
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Response Posted - 07/14/2013 : 13:40:44

Looking at Ian's rig, (I assume this is Ian's boat), the jib car tracks point slightly inboard of the shrouds.
However, they end quite a way aft of the shrouds. IMHO, I would refrain from running the sheets inboard of the shrouds.

Paul

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Ian Brisbane
1st Mate

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Australia
37 Posts

Response Posted - 07/14/2013 : 15:50:18

Hi Gents thanks for the feedback. some more info.

The tracks run forward of the shrouds and inboard of the the shrouds angling back as they head to finish from memory about a foot? in front of the winches. The shrouds are inside the toerail where it seems the most common fit.

With the 135% When I sheet in tight in light winds I am actually pulling the sail itself against the shrouds from the clew back along the foot by 400mm unless I have the cars so far back that I have next to no leech tension and a ridiculously flat foot. The problem I have is when sheeting to windward in reasonable wind it is very hard to get the balance between foot and leach tension and it is exacerbated if I have to furl a bit where it is then The sheets that are wrapping around the shrouds hence again getting lots of foot but not much leech as you can't effectively pull it down toward the track as it is against the shrouds. This has the effect of providing a constant sheeting angle which is the line between the shrouds and the tack as I always have a kink in my sheets. As a consequnce my headsail luffs and stalls miles earlier than my main. I am getting out to 110 degrees between tacks which is pretty poor.

My thinking was if the sail is forward of the shrouds then sheeted inboard I can sheet directly without kinks! Sounds simple enough!

Reefing the main is an option I would strongly look at if I could get the sheeting angles correct in the first place on the genny. The other issue is that on my tall rig in my area we are genereally 8-15knts and more between 10-15kts on average so I dont have the 135% out all the way all the time- we are constantly adjusting both sails (thats the fun of it) so I have fiddled with cars and sheeting angles for a year now and still no go. I have had some pretty good sailors on board to have a squiz as well it just seems the shrouds are in the perfect spot to stuff me up! I figured I may as well have correct shape with the reduced sail area giving me a flater and faster ride than with crap shape on a 135 which is causing excessive heel because I can't flatten it?

The reason I posted was to understand how it works for people with a jib cut for 110 as when I pull in my 135 to a 2.9m foot(approx 110)my clew is so high that I cant really make a comparison- only a guess.

I just wonder if it is better to have incorrectly adjusted sheets off the wind then on!

Paul - from what you mentioned about your tracks pointing straight at your shrouds that tells me that mine might be a bit better in board as i will have some more margin when off the wind if my cars are forward.

Thanks for your help again, will scratch around for some pics but in the pic above the port jib sheet is actually hidhng the track it does run all the way up past the deck organisers.- actually will take some pics this afternoon!

Edited by - on

Ian Brisbane
1st Mate

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Australia
37 Posts

Response Posted - 07/14/2013 : 18:45:40

Hi Rick

I had a look at your photos and my track seems to be the same as yours, do you fly a 110?

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 07/14/2013 : 20:01:22

Catalina was "experimenting" when they built the fin keel and the tall rig for the C-250. (I was in the market then.) Both disappeared in a very few years--the fin probably because it had insufficient demand in that segment, and the TR probably because the lighter boat became too tender (for its market). The wing keel version (standard rig) now has shrouds on the coachroof, apparently for a better sheeting angle for the 135. Last I heard, they didn't offer the 135 with the WB model, which has the "broader" rig, but I might be wrong or out of date. Anyway, I'm suspicious you're wrestling with an configuration Catalina gave up on and almost nobody here has. Sheeting "inside" will probably bend your sheets off the wind, and outside will prevent a board-flat genny. Boats are what they are.

If tenderness is part of your issue, rolling up the genny is not as effective as reefing the main. A rolled up genny raises its center of effort as well as diminishes its shape. A reefed main lowers the CE. The genny on most mast-head rigs generates more drive with less heeling force than the main. In those Australian winds, you might be better off with a 100-110% deck-sweeper, or whatever can be sheeted inside, with rollers on the lower shrouds for sailing off the wind.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 07/14/2013 20:02:50

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2272 Posts

Response Posted - 07/14/2013 : 20:04:14

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Ian Brisbane
 Hi Rick

I had a look at your photos and my track seems to be the same as yours, do you fly a 110?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Yes, I have a 110. I sail on a rather narrow river, so I tack frequently, and I like the way the 110 moves across the foredeck without getting hung up on anything. So a few years ago when I had to replace the original 110 that came with the boat, I went with another 110 from Doyle of Annapolis.

Because of this thread, I was looking pretty closely at the sheeting angles during an evening sail. It's hard for me to imagine sheeting inside the shrouds. It looks like the lower shroud would be especially problematic. But even going outside the shrouds, I try not to pull the genoa too flat. In our typical gentle winds I prefer to have a little more "belly" in it, even if I can't quite point as high. It just seems like sheeting in too much depowers the sail, and my VMG is actually better by pointing a little lower. But I'm not a racer, and I don't fine tune my leech and foot tension a carefully as you do.

Edited by - TakeFive on 07/14/2013 20:05:19

Ian Brisbane
1st Mate

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Australia
37 Posts

Response Posted - 07/14/2013 : 21:33:38

Thanks Gents much appreciated. I will do some thinking, dreaming, interpolation, lots of imagining and come up with something sombody else has already figured :)

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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 07/15/2013 : 06:30:23

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by TakeFive
 [quote]Originally posted by Ian Brisbane
 ...my VMG is actually better by pointing a little lower. But I'm not a racer...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">...but VMG is the objective to a racer, too. And max VMG often requires a compromise between course (high) and speed (a little lower).

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TakeFive
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Response Posted - 07/15/2013 : 10:06:23

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by TakeFive
 [quote]Originally posted by Ian Brisbane
 ...my VMG is actually better by pointing a little lower. But I'm not a racer...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">...but VMG is the objective to a racer, too. And max VMG often requires a compromise between course (high) and speed (a little lower).
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I'm aware of that. But you took my statement out of context. It's possible that with better control of leech and foot tension that someone could get better VMG by pointing higher. For the way I sail, my VMG is best with the slightly fuller genoa sheeted outside the shrouds, but that result might be different for a racer who wants to tweak everything more carefully.

So I'm acknowledging that it might work for him. But frankly, I have a hard time visualizing such a flat genoa generating any decent lift. And if the wind's blowing hard enough to require depowering, then roller reefing is a better way to depower than severe flattening.

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Ian Brisbane
1st Mate

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Australia
37 Posts

Response Posted - 09/02/2013 : 19:08:29

Hi Gents

Received my new jib and mainsail, and gave them a whirl, the jib foot is 11ft approx so finishes up just forward of my shrouds, anyway sheeted her inboard and it worked perfectly, got very close to the wind and it was faster than ever as it had correct shape finally, about 5.6knts in 10 odd knts of wind holding about 40- 43 degrees off true wind(could be wrong as I was giggling with delight too much to pay superclose attention). So very happy with it. Had to move the jib cars forward two notches to give the leach the right amount of tension when we went on a reach. Neither times did it hit the shrouds. Seems for my boat and the conditions I sail in that it is the right combo after all but it was a gamble getting there. The attached photo is an upwind (close) reach prob about 60degrees. Didnt get the chance to take a pic close hauled however sail shape looks even better as I can pull it in very tight. Interesting though I didn't backwind the main at all even when she was sheeted in very hard and I had the boom on centreline. I always backwinded with the 135% even when it was furled to the same distance this new jib is - probably the better shape has had an effect.

Cheers Ian

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TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2272 Posts

Response Posted - 09/02/2013 : 19:20:19

Wow, 2:1 purchase on your jib sheets really should flatten the sail a lot!

How many others here have blocks on your clew? What are the pluses and minuses of that?

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Ian Brisbane
1st Mate

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Australia
37 Posts

Response Posted - 09/02/2013 : 19:27:32

Yep, not really to flatten it, mainly so that we can sheet it in without grinding the winch, we only put the winch handle on when we are realy hard on the wind, it also enables my kids to use the winch- 8 yr old boy and 5 yr old Girl. Benefits are also we can do very fast tacks as the jib gets sheeted in by hand 95% at least of the way. Drawbacks are sometimes if they twist around each other you can get added friction which reduces the benefit however since I changed to fixed blocks and 8mm sheets that has resolved some. on the 135% sometimes they could get caught on the mast pad eye for the spin.

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Dave Brown
Navigator

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USA
174 Posts

Response Posted - 09/04/2013 : 09:18:48

Sir,
Living in Nebraska we deal with wind speeds all over the scale, one day its 3mph the next its over 20mph. I also have a tall rig (we have 5 Catalina’s 250 at our lake, 3 tall, 2 short).
We understand that under full sail, when the wind comes up, the boat is hard to handle, So we reef. Most of us have 2 reef points in the main, and marks on the foot of the jib to know how much jib we have unrolled. Now here’s a good place to make a point, Mark the foot of your jib, use some kind of marker you can see from the cockpit, Mark it in 1/3,s. Now try the jib only unrolled out 1/3, then 2/3. Also move the jib cars FWD and move the jib sheets in board of the side stays. This will give you more control. (in the 1/3 and 2/3 range) Don’t forget to move the cars back, and the sheet lines outside when you go back to fill jib.

Dave B.
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