Association Forum - Swing Keel: lower, remove, new parts questions

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Swing Keel: lower, remove, new parts questions

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

Aceguy
1st Mate

Member Avatar

USA
77 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/13/2005 : 01:37:13

I have been a searching, reading fool for the last four hours. I have learned a lot. I am also still unclear on a few things, and am hoping for a little clarification.

My new-to-me boat was kept in a saltwater slip by the PO for 10+ years. The keel cable failed some time ago, and the PO never replaced it. I will be a trailer-sailor for awhile, in mostly fresh water. Of course, I want all the keel parts to be in tiptop shape, so I'm just making the assumption that I need to replace them all before I even make my maiden voyage.

I went to CD today for the first time (15 minutes from my house, lucky me) and purchased a keel hanger casting kit, new cable, new turning ball, new keel cable hose & clamps, & an Owner's Handbook. I read the entire handbook. Great resource. The gent at CD was able to answer some of my questions, but not all of them, so I came home and started searching and reading.

I now know that I may also need to replace the attachment eye for the keel cable at the keel, depending on its condition. I also am expecting to find significant wear in the pivot point of the keel itself. I now realize I may need to have a bushing installed in the keel. I'll also be examining the condition of the keel coatings (once I get all that marine growth off of it) and likely replacing and relocating the zinc.

Here's what I'm still unclear on:
-Of the many, many threads I read on keel & keel trunk repair and maintenance, a few describe lowering the keel using the threaded rod method. I didn't find anywhere that actually described the process, although I assume I would remove the bolts in the bronze castings one at a time and replace them with threaded rod and a nut? Then what? Loosen each nut a little at a time until the keel is completely down? Doesn't that take forever?? Can you even get a wrench up there? As I said, I'm really unclear on how this works. I found a good picture of a keel in the lowered position using this method, but I'm just not sure how it got there.
-Once the keel is down, and I inspect the inside of the keel trunk, if I don't see any cracking or damage, am I OK to assume (for now) that all is structurally sound up there?
-Also, the bronze castings and the keel pivot pin can be completely accessed from underneath, correct? I don't have to cut into the trunk from above unless I'm repairing some kind of damage, right?
-I need a way to get my boat up in the air. I own a hardware store, and I plan to do the work in the parking lot behind the store. I have a forklift, but I have been driving a forklift enough years to know that a forklift used incorrectly can easily cause more damage than it can help. I was thinking of designing something that would cushion the bottom of the boat while the fork lifted it, and tie the boat off to the side of the building to control tilting. But, once I get it up in the air, how do I support it? Are there supports this tall available on the market, or will I need to build them? If they are individual supports, how do you control them sliding outward? Do you tie them together somehow? Has anyone supported their boat like this? I also thought of trying to attach some kind of lifting apparatus to my trailer, but using bottle jacks I can only see getting about 9-12" of lift, and that's not near enough to get the keel out.

Like I said, I'm in need of lots of clarification. I think all that reading just made me understand how much I didn't understand.

Thanks,

Eric

Eric Freedman
1984 SR/WK #4671
Folsom, CA

Edited by - Aceguy on 08/13/2005 01:43:53

britinusa
Web Editor

Members Avatar

USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 08/13/2005 : 01:48:59

Hi Eric (and welcome to the forum),
I've seen a post on the forum that shows a way to lower the keel away from the boat while it's still on the trailer.
I'll try find it.

Here's some advice I found on the forum so far..
"If you remove the four bolts and lower the keel at least 2" (using the all-thread method and/or a jack), there should then be room to slide the keel pivot hanger bearings or pillow blocks off the ends of the pivot pin. Then the pin should slide out of the keel. None of this dissassembly should require any significant force, (Except of course the part about lowering the 1,500 lb. keel!) Once the pivot hardware is out of the way, there should be plenty of room under the boat to replace the weldments, or female threaded inserts, since most of the work is done from inside the cabin."
That is part of the thread [url="http://www.catalina25-250.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8594&SearchTerms=slide,keel,out"]here[/url]

Also found [url="http://www.catalina25-250.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8756&SearchTerms=keel,trailer,lower"]this[/url]

but could not find the article that shows the lowering of the keel in progress.

Just a hint when searching... search one forum at a time, the system frequently times out if you search all forums (does for me anyway!)

Edited by - britinusa on 08/13/2005 02:21:29

rclift
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
152 Posts

Response Posted - 08/13/2005 : 02:33:29

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The keel cable failed some time ago, and the PO never replaced it. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Question: Is the boat out of the water and on a trailer? If not now would be the time to check the conditon of the swing keel trunk. In my boat with the L shape interior I just lift the lid on the forward settee and you can pretty easily tell if there is much damage to the trunk. If the boat isn't out of the water you need to install a new cable or rig up some sort of hoist using the sheet winches to bring up your keel.

The threaded rod method goes just about as you describe. Seems to me it was 3/8 inch rod.

You can see that my keel is lowered about as far as it could go while on the trailer. It's plently low enough to switch out the pin and casting. If you need to true up the hole then you will need a system to lift the trailer, remove the keel and transport the keel to a machine shop. All of which will take a significant amount of planning and prep inorder to do safely. You're dealing with 1500 pounds. The way I had it on the trailer the keel never left the containment of the shaft. On my 79 the hole was nearly perfect and needed no bushing. Unless the female weldments are stripped which would be unusual you shouldn't need to replace or do anything with them.

If you are going to install the mounting bracket you will have to calculate the exact width of the keel and mounting bracket and then figure out how much needs to be ground off of each of the brackets. This is most easily done by a machine shop. In my case they took off 5/32 of an inch of each bracket. I left about a 1/32 gap between bracket and boat. The whole bracket is accessed from below the boat and there is no cutting into the keel trunk. It is very rare for the keel to fail at this part of the assembly. If all the bolts are in place and not stripped and the mechanism looks sound then it ought to be ok for the time being. The newer mounting bracket will help with keel klunk.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Once the keel is down, and I inspect the inside of the keel trunk, if I don't see any cracking or damage, am I OK to assume (for now) that all is structurally sound up there?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> If there isn't any obvious damage and the boat doesn't leak I think you have to assume it's ok.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I need a way to get my boat up in the air.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> The best alternative is to keep the boat on the trailer. If you need lift the boat it would still be safer to figure out a way to lift it while it was still on the trailer. If that isn't an option then I would be looking for sailboat stands. If that were the case I'd probably look for a boat yard that could hoist your boat off the trailer onto stands and then do the work at the boat yard. The swing keel is not designed to have the weight of the boat resting on it like most fixed keel boats.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I now know that I may also need to replace the attachment eye for the keel cable at the keel<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Yes it would be best to replace the attachment especially if it is loose. In my case the bracket would not budge even after heating and a large amount of penetrating oil. I had the boat yard try to take it out and they concluded that it was more likely to break off then come out and wasn't going to slip out no matter what. I left it alone. Yours being in salt water might be in much worse condition.

Edited by - rclift on 08/13/2005 02:45:48

Aceguy
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
77 Posts

Response Posted - 08/13/2005 : 03:01:33

Thanks for the responses guys. The boat is out of the water and on my trailer. My understanding is that the cable didn't fail under sail, but simply corroded during its 10+ years of never having the keel retracted while sitting in salt water. It was their diver that first noticed that it had broken, and he hadn't noticed it the month before. The boat hadn't been sailed for quite a while. It was just being maintained monthly by a diving service (All this is second hand from the PO). I had the shipyard hoist the boat out and set her down on my trailer so that I could take her home (8 hours away). The keel just folded up under her as the hoist operator set her down. (he finessed it, for sure)

I was looking for lifting techniques just so that I could have a worst-case scenario plan in place from the very beginning. It will be great if I raise the boat a foot or so, drop the keel, and the bolts come out easy and the hole in the keel looks great. However, I want to be prepared to lift the boat enough to bring the keel out and be able to access it with the forklift so that I can put it in my truck for the trip to the machine shop if that is what is best. I don't want to be sitting there trying to talk myself out of a needed repair because I'm not prepared to do it.

Also, I have to assume that the bolts may break, which will be a whole 'nuther project. If that happens, I don't want to be working under that boat supported by a forklift. I want some stout supports! That's where I was hoping somebody might know where those are available for rent or purchase. I guess I could weld some up, but as I've gotten older I've learned that there's no point in starting from scratch on something that someone else has already perfected.

Edited by - Aceguy on 08/13/2005 03:09:05

rclift
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
152 Posts

Response Posted - 08/13/2005 : 03:22:40

You might check out how they raised the boat off the keel in this tech tip from Bill Holcomb. http://www.catalina25-250.org/tech/tech25/wingcon1.html
Also, Leon might want to chime in here. (resident expert on the swing keel) He had a method of removing the keel and encapsulating it in fiberglass. It was an excellent step by step process. If he still has it I would like to see it in our tech section.

Edited by - on

Aceguy
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
77 Posts

Response Posted - 08/13/2005 : 04:03:39

Thanks for that link. I read the whole thing. There is a good list of things to think about before starting that, or any related project. In that project, however, they used overhead cranes. I don't know of anywhere that I can get access to that kind of facility. One could use a forklift with a boom across the forks and straps hanging from the boom, but my forklift tops out around 9' or so, which wouldn't be nearly high enough to get over the boat on the trailer and centered on the boat. Really, the forklift will lift the boat from below just fine (not nearly as effectively as an overhead hoist, but it'll do). The problem then of course is getting it properly and safely supported.

I did read about the encapsulating of the keel with fiberglass. That's quite a project!

Anyone else with boat supporting ideas or other thoughts?

Edited by - on

atgep
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

1009 Posts

Response Posted - 08/13/2005 : 07:40:01

Removing the keel on the trailer is not a great idea. If anything goes wrong, you have very few options and a good chance to screw up your $$$$$$$trailer.
We dropped a keel low enough to work on the hangar of one of our fleet boats. The top of the keel will keep it in the trunk. When we got the keel down, we found the hole to be pretty egged out. The new hangars would not fit, but the old ones were in perfect shape. We put it all back together with new bolts and called it good. He is just going to add the keel repair to the list of things to do when the boat is at the boat yard. With the boat on stands, there will be plenty of room to drop the keel into a cradle that will support it.

You first need to find out if you have a problem.

Tom.

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

3072 Posts

Response Posted - 08/13/2005 : 10:23:58

I've lifted the boat free of the keel while on the trailer. It was the only way I could get up in the keel trunk to do serious cleaning/painting.

I used some bottle jacks, blocking, and scrap carpet for padding under the hull. With the EZ-Loader trailer, the aft bunks can be used as lifting points. (they swing up and lift the boat when jacked from the underside). With other trailers, this technique probably won't work.

If you lift the boat clear of the keel, be sure to C-clamp some blocking to the trailer frame to keep the keel from falling over/moving around.

Note that this technique will not allow you to fully 'seperate' the keel from the boat, you'll need access to some sort of overhead hoist (hanging the boat) or heavy cribbing that can span the trailer to do that. There may be some machine/fabrication shops in your area with overhead cranes in their shop that would be willing to lift the boat for you... or use a regular boatyard.

Safety warning: If you're not experienced with rigging, jacking and otherwise messing with heavy objects like this... get help from someone who is. Handling a 3,000 lb boat and a 1,700 lb swing keel are not trivial.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 08/13/2005 : 15:25:04

The secret to this success was borrowing a Catalina 25 fin keel trailer. It allowed the keel to come far enough down to do anything to it you might want to do. I recommend looking for a fin friend.

I lieu of that, how about pulling your boat along side a loading dock and having the fork lift already on the dock, you should be able to get a lot of lift that way.

Edited by - on

JaimeZX
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
34 Posts

Response Posted - 08/14/2005 : 02:20:05

Hello. I've been lurking for a while, but I decided to register and post because hopefully I have a bit of information that may be helpful. (Maybe.)

My friend has a Spirit 6.5 and on his website he has a bit of photo-documentation of his swing keel removal. Might give you a few ideas.
http://home.usaa.net/~spiritofsailing/
Look under "Restoration."

I've been lurking because next year I'm hoping to get a keelboat to add to my (small) stable of sailboats. My wife likes to "go inside" when she's cold and Hobies aren't very good for that sort of thing, but I like what I'm seeing here regarding the C25. ;) That's material for a different thread though. Hope the above link is helpful!
(Edit: okay, after rereading my friend's site it may not be AS helpful as I had originally thought, but you might get an idea or two.

)

Edited by - JaimeZX on 08/14/2005 02:40:04

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

3072 Posts

Response Posted - 08/14/2005 : 10:47:00

>""go inside" when she's cold and Hobies aren't very good for that sort of thing,"

Now there's an understatement... (excepting the Hobie 33 though).

Edited by - on

Aceguy
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
77 Posts

Response Posted - 08/15/2005 : 00:47:35

Well, I powerwashed the heck out of my boat yesterday. It was a very educational experience. Once I got all of that marine growth off of the keel and underside of the hull, it became pretty clear that the keel hasn't been painted in several years. While the hull itself has evidence of several coats of paint, I only see one, or maybe two, on the keel. I am probably going to end up removing the keel and having it sandblasted. You can see in the photo it's looking pretty rough. The hull is also due for bottom paint. Tell me what you think of my current plan:

I'm going to replace the keel cable, turn ball, cable hose, clamps, and the bronze pillow blocks, bolts, and the pivot itself. While I have it down, I'll take a look and see if I am going to need to install a bushing in the keel in the future, but I'm not going to do it now. Then, I'm going to treat the keel with Jasco rust prep & prime (basically an acid wash) and spray a couple of coats of primer on it. Then I'm going to computer match a quart of flat exterior house paint and touch up the spots on the hull where the bottom paint has worn through (purely for cosmetic purposes, it bugs me!

) Anyway, then I'm going to sail it. Come winter, I'll get serious and have the keel sandblasted, and I'll sand the hull down and prep it properly and put a good coat of bottom paint on her. Does that sound reasonable?

Here's my keel after powerwashing:

Here's the pillow blocks. After powerwashing, I had to work on them for an hour with a detail pick to expose the bolts. I'm doubting they've ever been replaced:

Here is a pic of the worn bottom paint that my vanity wants me to touch up:

And here she is on the trailer, just begging me to hurry up and get her in the water:

Sorry the pics are so small. I tried to keep them under 100k so that they didn't enlarge the page. Turns out 100k is a bit too small. Next time I'll know better.

Edited by - on

waltex
Deckhand

Members Avatar

USA
22 Posts

Response Posted - 08/15/2005 : 17:00:36

I'm in the same process w/79 C25 SK. The powerwash gave me an unbelievable transformation since my deck was almost black when I got it in June. I just replaced the blown out eye (screwed into aft portion of keel). The old eye was a single-eye. the new one is double-eye and appears to be much more durable. One small problem was that the new double-eye would not fit down into the recess so it could be bolted to the keel. Therefor I had to use my powerdrill with a burr to grind out enough room in the cast iron keel to get the new eye screwed down into it. You might temporarily put a 3/8" bolt in the hole to plug it from filings to keep the hole clean while you grind enough to make the recess larger. Also R&R'd lifting cable. Machinist friend put a strong pallet on his forklift with a web-belt as a pad and lifted the stern up to give me about 12-18" room to work. I needed to spray the old bolt w/penetrating oil and heated with a torch and whacked the old bolt to loosen it. Might work best if you try screwing 'in' to loosen it and then back it out. PO said that he never heard a 'klunk' while sailing, so will assume keel hanger is OK for now until winter haul. Will relaunch so I can sail soon and haul out in winter for an exam of the keel hanger assembly. Am waiting for backorder from CD to retrofit to internal halyards now since the OEM cables & sheaves are worn out. A word about Loctite. Lowell at CD informs... Loctite chemically reacts to ferrous metal to cure. When you screw your 3/8 SS bolt into the bronze hanger you need a loctite 'primer' in order to cause the Loctite to cure properly. I found one of the 4, 3/8 SS bolts very loose (out about 1/2"). I could find no primer anywhere in SE Tex so ordered from CD. I am looking fwd to maiden voyage quite soon, also. Please feel free to email if you like. Waltex

Edited by - on

Aceguy
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
77 Posts

Response Posted - 08/15/2005 : 20:46:59

What happened to my pictures I wonder? Earlier they were there, and now they are red "x"s? This ever happen to anybody else?

Edited by - on

Alan Clark
Captain

Members Avatar

406 Posts

Response Posted - 08/15/2005 : 22:38:22

Welcome Eric! This is a Great Forum and has helped me many times. My question would be if you need to check for trunk damage, can you take off the wood "Cover" in the cabin, and if so what do you find? and also look under the port side settee. There has to be another way other than dropping the keel. BTW that threaded rod method seems great, but how long does it take? Many Thanks Alan & Eileen

Edited by - on

JaimeZX
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
34 Posts

Response Posted - 08/17/2005 : 02:00:51

Pics are Xs for me also. :(

Edited by - on

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.