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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Sail trim and traveler use

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/14/2005 : 16:13:46

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by mwalkup
 Frank sir, I'll second that request from Buzz !

If you'd be so kind as to share some pointer's on the use of the traveler.
Sadly if I don't start putting it to some use its going to rust in place.
Thanks.
Mike
83fk/tr
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You guys are embarrassing me, you need to remember that I took last place in the nationals. That said; these are some of my ideas about traveler use. The traveler is a sail shaping tool that has capabilities that vary with its position along the boom and its width. The Catalina 25 has a MINIMAL traveler. On many boats the traveler/mainsheet combination are much further forward and can act as the boomvang over a great deal of the range of boom travel. On the C-25 the position of the traveler means that it must work with the boomvang in all but the most closely hauled sail trim positions. I have tell tails on the leech of my main, you should too. When there is the proper downward pull on the main, (from the vang or mainsheet) all of the tell tails should be streaming, that means the airflow from the headsail is continuing across the main and providing maximum drive. We all know that when you are over powered you should sheet out. What if you are really trying to maximize your speed while depowering? When the main is allowed to drop to the low end (leeward) but the mainsheet is not eased you have sheeted out without using the mainsheet. By not using the mainsheet you have maintained the trim to the leech and the tell tails will still be streaming. The luff will however show the indication of depowering by fluttering, luffing along the mast. The luffed area is not driving the boat and you have depowered the boat. This is typical of racers who are trying to walk a fine line between maximum speed and excessive power. (All of this assumes you have the optimum sailshape as provided by the outhaul, halyard, and Cunningham)

Our boats do not point very well. When you are trying to fetch a waypoint in the distance it is natural to try to point as high as possible. In this situation speed is not as important as getting to the point as efficiently as possible which is often holding a high course to avoid tacking. This point of sail is pinching, the luff of the headsail is almost luffing as indicated by the inside (weather) tell tail pointing up while the leeward tell tail still streams. You now have you headsail hauled in as tight and close to the centerline of the boat as possible. The effect of this trim will be to backwind the main by narrowing the slot between the two sails. The fix for this is to haul the traveler to windward, as high as you can. This will bring the boom across the centerline of the boat, while not normally a good thing to do it is the right thing to do when you are trying to fetch that waypoint. Fast? No. Effective? Yes. These two scenarios presume that you want the tell tails on the leech flying straight back to maximize speed. Both these scenarios depend on the mainsheet for the downward force on the boom because these situations are occurring "over" the traveler.
If I needed to sheet out further in the first case where I am trying to depower with maximum speed maintained, I would turn the downward force job over to the boomvang. In order to do that I will no longer adjust my traveler, it is already as low as is possible, now I must let go the mainsheet. For those leech tell tails to continue streaming while the forward luffing area increases the boomvang must be on hard enough to maintain the leech tension even though the boom is no longer over the traveler. On our boats we are forced to use our vang much sooner than most boats due to our transom mounted position and the short length of the traveler. This means the 3:1 boomvang on most of our boats is not enough purchase and 4:1 is really an important improvement. Normally when we sail we “set” the boomvang while the boom is over the traveler. We do that because the mainsheet is actually pulling the boom down and we can set the vang with minimum effort, it mimics the downward force of the mainsheet and maintains that force as the boom leaves the traveler area. That seems like a good thing; let the boomvang handle the boom tension all the time! The problem with having the boomvang set while the boom is over the traveler is that it takes control of the boom height away from the mainsheet. In the very high-wind scenario, (“…when you are fighting to keep her on her feet, let off the boomvang and haul the traveler to weather. Your main will twist off at the top spilling the air that is making you heel, it will drive from the bottom of the sail and you will have a much better chance than leaving the main down low and hard. The down low and hard setting is for high wind but wind that you are still handling, twisting off the top is for when the wind is handling you!”), the boomvang must be off or the boom cannot rise. If the boom cannot rise then the sail cannot twist and spill the air which is causing the excessive heeling. This twisting effect can be applied to the headsail as well. The rule of thumb is to move the genoa car forward as wind speed increases to harden the leech and reduce flutter, once again that is only to a point. At some point you may want to move it back, hardening the foot and allowing the leech to twist off at the top.
I am in no way qualified to write a learned dissertation on sail trim but I do sail where our wind is often very high. I hope that this has provided some insight and hopefully will spur some additional commentary and contributions.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2005 : 16:48:56

A technique I use to improve sail shape and boom postion when sailing close to the wind involves taking the bitter end of the lazy genoa sheet and tying it to the boom. I then pull the lazy sheet ahead of the swiveling block on the genoa track back to the unused winch. From there I position the boom where I want it and use the mainsheet to tension the leech. It is amazing how much range I can get out of the mainsail shape using this easy technique.

Edited by - on

Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1768 Posts

Response Posted - 09/15/2005 : 11:36:43

You guys are embarrassing me, you need to remember that I took last place in the nationals ... - Frank 

I think Derek might have tied a bucket to the back of your boat

... you've got to watch out for a guy whose nickname is "Derek the Dread."

Thanks for the explanation, Frank ... I really appreciate your taking the time to write it all down. I've printed it out and added it to my sailing files. Sometimes this sail trim stuff is really counter-intuitive to me, and I've got a flying background ... you'd think my light bulb would have illuminated by now, but it hasn't.

Don ... that's a cool technique ... I'll have to try that!

Edited by - on

Lightnup
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1016 Posts

Response Posted - 09/15/2005 : 11:57:05

Thanks Frank. It all makes sense, now I just have to remember it all when the stuff's hitting the fan and my wife is commenting, "Are you sure you know what you're doing?"

Steve

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DanM
Captain

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USA
256 Posts

Response Posted - 09/15/2005 : 21:17:00

Nice, clear dissertation, Frank. I'm also printing it so I can read it and re-read it until all the details sink in. Our short stern traveler doesn't often get the attention it deserves.
My wife and I enjoyed a late afternoon sail today and she lounged against a pillow while I studied sail trim. Even in 8-10k wind it was easy to see the twisting effect. Hope to study all you said under heavier air before we have to haul.

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seastream
Navigator

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USA
242 Posts

Response Posted - 09/15/2005 : 21:39:32

How Frank can follow the informative post he just made with "I am in no way qualified to write a learned dissertation on sail trim", floors me. I've learned much from his postings, and hope to continue to do so. He is as modest as they come. Bravo, Frank!

Bob

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Lightnup
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1016 Posts

Response Posted - 09/16/2005 : 08:58:08

...PLUS he's as cute as a bug's ear!

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PamC
Navigator

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171 Posts

Response Posted - 09/16/2005 : 10:32:33

Gee, I don't think we have a traveler on our boat, it's usually just me and Dave. But I guess it's worth a try. Should we pick one up at the dock? How much does one usually eat? And what if they resist being "hauled to windward"? Or pinching?

Sorry I couldn't resist, feeling a little mischievious today

what with it being the first day of vacation and all. But seriously Frank, cute as a bug, I have read and reread this and printed it for "The Book". Thanks for taking the time to explain a topic that has eluded me so far in a way that I could understand. You're a good teacher.

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mwalkup
1st Mate

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USA
79 Posts

Response Posted - 09/16/2005 : 14:51:10

Bravo-Bravo!
I too have to thank you Frank for your timely and well thought out reply to our travler question.
I printed it and have read and re-read it more than a couple times.

I understand much better now how the travler works in relation to its center line position and point of sail.
I have never used it to dump wind before, though it makes perfect sense.
I think you just improved my sailing ability somewhat.
Best.
Mike
83tr/fk

Edited by - on

pjeffarch
Navigator

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USA
135 Posts

Response Posted - 09/16/2005 : 22:27:50

Frank, ya need to write a book! I'd buy it.

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thaind
Navigator

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Canada
145 Posts

Response Posted - 09/18/2005 : 07:48:39

Have appreciated dialogue on subject a great deal. Not to hyjack the direction of this strand, but does anyone know where to obtain replacement rollers for the traveler? Mine look multi-sided.

Edited by - thaind on 09/18/2005 20:55:07

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 09/18/2005 : 09:59:51

I replaced mine with Harken ballbearing sheeves. I want to say #277 but I may be wrong on that. The part number is in a thread from winter 03-05 and in a Mainsheet mag from that time. I am on the boat now, I will try to find the part number for you.

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John P
Captain

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USA
324 Posts

Response Posted - 09/20/2005 : 08:50:25

Frank,

You do not need to be a champion to understand how sail trim works. And I was one as a kid that could prove that you could know almost nothing and still win.

When I was a kid (11-14), I would win the Junior Sailing championship of my club every year. I did not know why I was faster than everyone else (espcially in a very old Sunfish with 100 lbs of extra glass, covering the rotted hull). But, I beat those kids every time. Little did I know then, but it was due to my older brother properly setting the Sunfish up for me. It was proper sail trim, a good feel for boat boat speed, good starts and my extra 30 lbs of weight over the rest of the fleet to keep me upright in the heavy stuff. There were a couple of us though that did learn the benefit of a traveler, even on a sunfish. In the heavy stuff, we would disconnect the end of the main where it attatched to the static traveler (for lack of a better term), and connect to a small block that we had fastend to that same traveler, thus allowing us to depower the small sail, without sacrificing much in the way of boat speed or pointing ability.

I recall during those times, my father grilling me on sail trim and tuning. I did not know much about it at all. But by the end of my time in that program, my 13 year old sunfish was outfitted with a working traveler (opted for actual pre-measured loops over the rolling block), boom vang and outhall. I learned finally that it was all about sail shape. A good lesson for me when I moved up to Snipes and finally E-Scows.

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 09/20/2005 : 13:32:12

Snipes have quite a history here in Wichita. There was a champion years ago who wrote "the book" on snipes, I want to say his name was Walker or something like that.

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John P
Captain

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USA
324 Posts

Response Posted - 09/20/2005 : 15:48:26

We had a guy (literally named Guy) that blew everybody away with an older wooden boat, when all others were in glass. He knew how to make that boat fly. I did not crew with him, but my main junior sailing nemesis did and we used to compare notes. In all honesty, my friend would have preferred to sail with the fellow I sailed with because Guy was so anal.

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thaind
Navigator

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Canada
145 Posts

Response Posted - 09/21/2005 : 07:36:03

Thanks for information on sheeve replacement.

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 09/21/2005 : 13:21:29

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by thaind
 Thanks for information on sheeve replacement.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
277 is the one that is too small, you want 160

[url="http://www.harkenstore.com/uniface.urd/scpdinw1.ShowProd?B4RPMEB9Y95G5C"]Harken #160 sheave[/url]

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joegeiger
1st Mate

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USA
63 Posts

Response Posted - 09/23/2005 : 16:26:34

Are all the sheaves the same size on the traveler? From your picture I count 2 for the control lines and 1 for the traveler bar. Are there 2 more on the other side of the bar?

One of the sheaves broke on my traveler and I was looking for the correct part to order a replacement. I might as well replace them all. Your message comes at the perfect time.... Thanks Frank.

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 09/24/2005 : 01:21:57

There are 5 sheaves counting the one that rides the top of the bar. To be honest you should ignore that one and probably leave it off. The 160 sheave is a little taller and makes it so there is not room for a 160 on top. I used a 277 there. It serves no purpose since the car is always being lifted. This is the rest of my mod with the Harken cheeks and the spinlock cleats.

Edited by - on

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