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Water in Hull

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Tanglefoot
1st Mate

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USA
76 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/11/2005 : 22:47:23

I have just recently purchased a '79, ( three months ago, first boat )
It is a swing keel, I have found a leak where the head should be. The 2' piece of wood that is screwed to the floor, the three screws are leaking water ( sorry for the nomenclature, my boat fluency is limited ), does this mean my hull is leaking or should there be water! There is always about a gallon of water under both bench seats though I bail it, it goes up to the exact same quantity and stops! Thank you for your help, I am obviously and new member and smile when reading these topics and forums knowing people still help out one another. Thanks

Tanglefoot

Edited by - on

Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1772 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2005 : 23:59:22

Hi Jonathan,

Welcome to the group!

You wrote, "I have found a leak where the head should be" ... do you have a porta-pottie, a marine head, or nothing at all?

I'd bet that the source of the water is rain leaks. The portlight in the head is especially notorious for leaking, and virtually all of us have had some trouble with the other windows leaking as well. Other sources of water can be the chain plates, the front hatch, the anchor locker, the base of the mast, and probably a half dozen more places I haven't thought of.

Rebedding the windows is tedious, but it isn't hard to do, and that will likely stop a lot of the leaking.

Is your boat in fresh water, or salt water? If you keep it in salt water, you could taste the water to see if it is salty ... if it isn't, that rules out any leaking through the hull. If you've got a marine head, and you think the holding tank might be the source of the water (although you didn't mention any smell), I'd certainly think twice before I tasted it!

BTW, it isn't uncommon for water to seep back to the area you just bailed out ... it is simply migrating from other parts of the boat to the lowest point in the bilge ... it just takes a while.

I think you've had some good rains in your area thanks to all the hurricane and tropical storm activity ... I'd bet a beer you've got rain leaks, but I could be wrong. What else can you tell us about the water and your boat?

I'm sure others will have some ideas for you ... 'hope we can help you track down the source of the water. Again, welcome to the group!

Edited by - Buzz Maring on 10/12/2005 00:01:06

Tanglefoot
1st Mate

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USA
76 Posts

Response Posted - 10/12/2005 : 00:15:10

Hey thanks alot Buzz for the quick respons! If you take the head out the equation, and are left with just the bare space. Then of space on port where the 90 degree wood panel, meets the floor of the boat, the screws used to fasten the wood to the floor, when I remove them, there is a serious leak from the screw holes. I had first thought the same as what you had thought about the lowest point=gathering of water, but have found that the leak is coming from the floor of the boat through the screw holes. With a swing keel, is there water in the hull? The bench seat closer to the front, I will bail , and it seam that there is water coming in from what seems to be where the keel retracts, that water will immediately come back in after I bail it, but stops at the same volume of about a bucket and a half ( this was during the last 4 week dry period as well ). The opposite bench, will not fill back up immediately but does eventually ( 1 to 2 days ) fill back up to the 1 gallon to 1 1/2 gallon volume. I am worried that I have leaks in the hull as it is an older (79) boat. Thanks soo much for your help Buzz!

Edited by - on

Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1772 Posts

Response Posted - 10/12/2005 : 01:08:36

... where the 90 degree wood panel, meets the floor of the boat, the screws used to fasten the wood to the floor, when I remove them, there is a serious leak from the screw holes. 

Hi again,

The floor in the head is lower than either the floor in the V-berth or the floor in the salon. If there is water trapped underneath that floor, and you remove the screws holding the wooden piece to the floor, the water will shoot up out of the screw holes and continue until all the water in the bilge is at the same level ... it sounds to me like this is what is happening in this case.

The important thing is to determine where the water is coming from. I seriously doubt you've got a leaking swing keel trunk, or your boat would likely have sunk by now (or at least you'd have seen a LOT more water, probably covering the entire floor/sole).

Are you in salt water? If so, taste the water to see if it is salty, and let us know ... hopefully, it won't be saltwater. Even if it is saltwater (indicating a leak somewhere in the hull), the leak might not be the swing keel trunk ... it could also be the lower rudder gudgeon. Does your boat sit low enough in the water for the lower gudgeon to be underwater? When you sail, the boat can squat enough to put the lower gudgeon underwater, so the boat doesn't necessarily have to be sitting low all the time ... does the water seem to get worse after you've been sailing?

In addition to the gudgeon, you might also have a leak around a through-hull. You should have at least one through-hull where the galley sink drains through the bottom of the boat, and if you have a second sink in the head, you've got one for that sink drain, too.

One other possibility is a leak around the paddle-wheel transducer for the knotmeter ... those are usually located just to the port of the swing keel trunk inside the bench seat you mentioned earlier.

Is your swing keel in working order? As far as you know, has the cable ever failed and allowed the keel to free-fall? If you do have a damaged swing keel trunk, it can be repaired, but that is usually a very serious leak that can sink the boat rather quickly. FYI, here is a link to our Tech Tips showing a keel trunk repair job: [url="http://www.catalina25-250.org/tech/tech25/dragn2.html"]Swing keel trunk repair[/url]

I hope this helps ... I'm sorta' shooting in the dark, but hopefully this'll give you some things to check. Keep the questions coming, and good luck!

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 10/12/2005 : 10:03:53

Welcome to "This 'ol Boat".

I guess a natural first question would be... "has it been raining?". If the answer is "no, not a drop" then you'll need to look for sources of leakage below the waterline. If the answer is "yes", read on.

Unless the boat has been already 'gone-through' one of your first tasks will be to re-bed all the topside hardware... including the windows. It is not very expensive to do, just a matter of unbolting, cleaning, and re-bedding everything. There are lots of on-line articles on how to do this properly. (It's not rocket science, but there is a 'right' way to go about it)

In addition, the deck-hull joint (hidden under the rub-rail) will probably need to be re-sealed. (This is a bit bigger chore due to the number of bolts to be unscrewed). As a temporary measure you can run a bead of caulking along the top edge of the rubrail. Use 3M-101, Lifeseal, or other quality caulking compound. My temporary measure has been in service for a number of years now.

Most of us find these kind of chores to be a 'labor of love'...

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 10/12/2005 : 10:35:28

Tanglefoot,

As the others have mentioned, there's a lot of volume hidden between the hull liner (your interior furniture) and the actuall hull. The liner is darn near a water tight hull in itself as delivered from the factory. So you could have many gallons of water hiding down there. Your description of water that returns to about the same level after bailing sounds like it's coming from that area. As the others have mentioned, with an older boat, everything attached to the deck needs to be removed and rebedded. If you check our archives you should find several previous discussions of various techniques for doing this.

When I first got my 1979 C-25, it had both these problems -- lots of leaky deck fittings, and a huge amount of rain water trapped below the hull liner. I too had lockers that mysteriously refilled with water from that resevoir, and the lower gudgeon that only leaked when underway. After diligently chasing leaks for years, I now have dry lockers, and only slight dampness in the very bottom of the hull during monsoon season.

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 10/12/2005 : 15:19:40

Harvey and I have a 1978 - and we probably would have won the ugliest boat award at this years nationals if we would have gone. If you want the whole story of saving the boat from a swamp, I can give it, but I would rather spare the millions of others from hearing it again.

We still have a little bit of water, and we finally know the source. However we used to have a wet boat. Recaulk everything, you’ll often hear me reference the great caulk shortage of the late 70’s. Frank either didn’t use any caulk, or it all disintegrated since he made these things.

Here are the key areas in order of importance.

1. Rub Rail – held on by sheet metal screws every 6 to 8 inches, un-caulked of course.
2. Windows
3. Jib Tracks
4. Anchor locker
5. cleats
6. All other harware – be sure to check the winches.
7. Any other holes made by screws in your deck.

Also check your through holes and your scupper hoses and swing keel hose. Have a dowel plug for any hole in the boat taped to the hull close to that area. I guarantee those aren’t leaking or your boat would be sunk at the slip.

dw

Edited by - on

Tanglefoot
1st Mate

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USA
76 Posts

Response Posted - 10/17/2005 : 15:19:43

Thank you everybody for your help. After two days of stressful wonder, I used an electric pump and pumped the two bench seats lockers and rid of alot of water!!!! With none returning through the screw holes. Anyway of accessing a lower point in the boat to remove as much water as possible? Thanks again everyone for your help!!!

Edited by - on

boatgt
Navigator

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117 Posts

Response Posted - 11/02/2005 : 00:36:34

What is the lowest place in the bilge or best place to put a bilge pump on a swing keel model?
Thanks
Gene

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/02/2005 : 08:08:30

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by boatgt
 What is the lowest place in the bilge or best place to put a bilge pump on a swing keel model?
Thanks
Gene

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Remember, the Catalina 25 bilge should be dry, you should not need a pump. (We have nothing that drains to our bilge as some larger boats do.) Fix the cause. Boats do not have to smell, owners let boats smell!

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 11/02/2005 : 09:21:46

Gene,

There are two lowest places in the bilges of a C-25 swing keel hull -- one on each side of the swing keel trunk about where the dinette foot well is. As you may have figured out, there are a couple of obstacles to installing a typical automatic bilge pump there. There is no factory-provided access to those lowest points on either side of the swing keel trunk. Further, on the stbd side there is very little height available under the cabin sole.

In my 1979 C-25, I installed three bilge pumps. One is a replacement for the manual diaphragm pump that came with the boat when I got it. The pickup for that one is in the bilge on the stbd side of the keel trunk near the swing keel pivot. Also on the stbd side, I installed the smallest automatic electric bilge pump I could find (500GPH). That one is under the cabin sole near the base of the stairs, as far forward as I could jam it. (The height available in the bilge there tapers forward.) The third pump is a large (3,700GPH) automatic installed under the sink close to the port side of the swing keel trunk.

Each of these three pumps is intended to perform a different specific task. The 500GPH I think of as the "slurper". It was selected specifically for its ability to draw down to as shallow a puddle as possible before shutting off. I further optimized its slurping ability by reducing its discharge hose to 1/2" diameter. The 3,700GPH automatic is intended as a damage control pump. Mounted higher than the "slurper", it would only come on if the smaller pump were not keeping up, such as a serious leak below the waterline. The damage control pump could keep ahead of a 1-1/2" to 2" hole in the hull a foot below the waterline. The manual pump would come into play on a really bad day when both the other pumps have failed (due to dead batteries), and one person had to both pump and drive the boat. Its handle can be operated from the helmsman's position.

I realize few, if any, C-25 owners are going to install a bilge pump system as elaborate as mine. I'm just describing it as food for thought. As I recall, Don Casey's book, "This Old Boat", has a good section on how to design a proper bilge pump installation.

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

mashedcat
Navigator

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USA
194 Posts

Response Posted - 11/02/2005 : 15:18:26

i bought buttercup last winter and dried it out. i think i took off nearly 60 or more gallons of water. the boat had been sitting in the rain in a marina uncared for for quite some time. i took everthing off the boat including the interior woodwork, locker covers etc. the boat took on another 3 or 4 gallons in no time sitting in my driveway closed up. i replaced the gaskets on the forward hatch. reglazed and rebedded the windows and sealed the rubrail seam with silicone. that pretty much took care of my leakage problems.
i still get some accumulation under the port settee which i can only attribute to the drain system. good luck

Edited by - on

boatgt
Navigator

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117 Posts

Response Posted - 11/07/2005 : 02:00:01

I like the way you think Leon! It doesn’t hurt anything to have a nice pump system in place when you might need it. Especially on these leaky boats till we find the leaks themselves. I plan to redo the deck fittings and windows this winter. Hopefully that will take care of my water problems.
Thanks
Gene

Edited by - on

Sid
Navigator

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129 Posts

Response Posted - 11/08/2005 : 12:56:12

If you have the dinette version, water becomes trapped under the floor between the dinette seats and adds to the smell as well. Search the site and you can find info on where to drill. Finally got rid of the "boat smell" after drilling drainholes and taking out the gallons of water and rotting wood from underneath. Still working on the windows though.
Good Luck,
Sid

Edited by - on

mashedcat
Navigator

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USA
194 Posts

Response Posted - 11/08/2005 : 20:52:27

i forgot to add that i repainted the nonskid on buttercup as well and in doing that had removed everthing that was attached to the topside of the boat and rebedded it after all my deck work was complete.

Edited by - on

boatgt
Navigator

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117 Posts

Response Posted - 11/11/2005 : 01:06:17

What is the best product to use when resealing the deck fittings?
Thanks
Gene

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/11/2005 : 01:08:29

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by boatgt
 What is the best product to use when resealing the deck fittings?
Thanks
Gene
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Check out this recent [url="http://www.catalina25-250.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10853"]topic on the General Forum.[/url]

Edited by - on

mmac
Navigator

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USA
168 Posts

Response Posted - 11/11/2005 : 11:59:23

Tanglefoot,

My '79 has leaked in all of the above places. I also had water comming in from my maststep and deck wiring plug. So be sure to recaulk those as well.

Edited by - mmac on 11/11/2005 12:00:30

boatgt
Navigator

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117 Posts

Response Posted - 11/11/2005 : 14:12:33

Hey Don,
Great post, very informative. I looked through the archives and can’t find the post on where to drill? Has anyone seen it? I don’t have an inboard fuel or holding tank so no real reason I shouldn’t have the space under the booth drain to the bilge.
Thanks
Gene

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