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Sailing collision on the lake today

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Tom Potter
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1913 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/15/2005 : 19:55:56

It was a nice day on the lake today, wind was out of the west about 15 mph. It was clear day and there were many boats out. We were on a starboard tack and we had just over took a 35' sailboat, he was about 75 yards off my port beam. There was a smaller (22') sailboat on a port tack headed toward the 35'. The 22' went by us about 75 yards off my port as well. Then I heard it... BAM!!!! RIPPPPP, the 35' and 22' collided! I didn't see it happen, but heard it... that awful sound of the hulls hitting and shrouds popping and sails ripping. I turned around in time to see the demasting of the 22'. They laid there together for a while starboard to starboard and secured all the rigging. Luckly no one was hurt. I don't understand it, there was plenty room all around them. I think the guy on the 22' must have been snoozing.

1997 250 TR WK (sold)
1984 O'Day 28 (sold)
1979 SISU 22
Bath, NC.

Edited by - Tom Potter on 10/15/2005 20:15:46

Ben - FL
Admiral

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880 Posts

Response Posted - 10/15/2005 : 22:21:06

Even if one skipper was asleep at the helm, the other is required to avoid a collision even if he was the stand on vessel. Was there no whistle warning or anything. I keep mine within arms reach. Glad it wasn't me. Also glad no one was injured.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 10/16/2005 : 07:13:56

As I see it, Ben is right... fault is both... I'd guess a 60-40 with the 22 footer getting 60 percent as he was the give way vessel.

It would seem that neither boat had adequate lookout and neither boat took evasive action... 4 counts of fault there plus the failure of the 22 to give way to stand on vessel. Total, 5 counts 20% each.

Edited by - on

kevinmac
Admiral

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USA
732 Posts

Response Posted - 10/16/2005 : 15:38:07

It may seem off topic, and I know that was probably not the case here, but for a facinating example of how two vessels can collide when they see each other *hours* in advance, find a book about the wreck of the passenger liner Andrea Doria as a result of a collision with the Stockholm. It's like when you meet someone in the hallway, and you both go in the same direction several times, and eventually stop facing each other (or collide). I know, the right of way rules preclude this, but read about this collision for a real world example of when they fail.

Edited by - on

Esteban
Navigator

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139 Posts

Response Posted - 10/16/2005 : 21:03:20

Okay - make mental note to pull out the air horn from inside next time out.

Edited by - on

John V.
Admiral

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USA
559 Posts

Response Posted - 10/17/2005 : 13:03:18

kevin brings an interesting point.

As I recall the stockholm had its radar set on 3 miles instead of its long range setting. Thinking the Andrea Doria was still many miles away and they had plenty of room and time. In actuality the two vessels were only a mile and a half apart and closing quickly.

One quirk of this accident was, though a number of passengers on the doria were killed when the Stockholm skewered her, when she pulled back on the fore deck of the stockholm, was a girl who had been asleep in her bunk aboard the other vessel.

Edited by - on

Jack Schafer
Navigator

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USA
112 Posts

Response Posted - 10/17/2005 : 15:02:46

Had a similar incident happen to me this year. While racing, we were leward of a 25'Cat both of us on a starboard tack. A J22 on port tack was going to cross our bow. we shouted "starboard" but the J22 knew he could cross us. However, We had the Cat 25 covered and he did not see him.At the last second he saw the the windward boat and crash tacked. The the jib trimmer didn't release the jib sheet and the boat did a 180 right in front of us. We gybed and slammed midships.Luckily there was no damage or injury.
Jack Schafer
2nd Wind 250 #106

Edited by - on

MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 10/17/2005 : 15:42:33

Kind of reminds me of the old joke about the navy ship demanding the boat coming toward them turn away, to get the reply that the light house has right of way.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 10/17/2005 : 22:51:03

This could have been a combination of a couple of things mentioned above... One boat "covered" by another, and the old "shall we dance" maneuver at the last second--or it could have been that the 22 was asleep.

Ben is right--"stand on" does not mean "right of way." It means that when converging, one vessel (stand on) is supposed to maintain course while the other alters course, avoiding the "dance". That convention is intended to minimize collisions, but it does not give either boat the "right of way." (That only goes to a vessel with limited ability or room to maneuver--for example, a tanker or ore boat in a channel.) The stand-on vessel still has a responsibility to (1) signal if he sees a problem, and (2) avoid the problem.

I "sit on" my air horn--it's always in the line locker under the starboard seat. But in a pinch, that could take too long to reach. I also take care not to overtake 35-footers.

(...although I overtook a 60-something Swan one day in very light air--never could figure that out!)

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 10/18/2005 : 08:51:44

On an inland lake we have very little to entertain us. We often sail within inches of each other as much to have something to do as anything else. It unnerves non sailing guests but sailors enjoy it. (We all find it humorous when guests point out boats a quarter mile away and express their concern for the impending collision!

) I am a big proponant of windows in gennys! I would never get closer than 20 feet to an unknown boat. Usually the people who have little to no skills start trying to avoid you rather than standing on. If a boat trys to run away then it is best to simply wave and find another target.

Edited by - on

Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 10/18/2005 : 10:37:55

"...although I overtook a 60-something Swan one day in very light air--never could figure that out!)".

I think maybe the Swan had all the sailcovers on and the anchor overboard. Did you check for that?

Gary B.
Fleet 94 Captain
s/v Encore! #685

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 10/18/2005 : 12:24:52

Dave - I hope you remembered that an anchored boat is one of the 6 occasions when starboard does not have right-of-way!

Derek

Edited by - on

Ben - FL
Admiral

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880 Posts

Response Posted - 10/18/2005 : 16:23:50

Speaking of anchored; I think I will aquire me some day shapes first time the opportunity presents itself. They should be easy to run up the jib halyard since I have a CDI furler. I know they are not required on vessels of our size, but still...

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 10/18/2005 : 16:31:10

I would think that in light air, you might have been favored. Some of those big boys don't start moving until 10 kts.

With a boat that size even with electric roller furler, holding the button down long enough to unfurl the sails might possibly still be more expending energy than jumping the jib at the mast on a 25.

When Racing - S happens, I've been on big starting lines where if you don't stop hiking you'll lose your legs because they get that close, some guy down at the bottom tries to take the whole fleet up over the line and it can get ugly really quick. Same thing when your trying to leebow somebody and have no room for error. That is exactly when the jib sheet gets stuck and you don't get the boat tacked in time. I estimate that I've been racing about 12 years now, and have seen some pretty agressive maneuvers and some executed beutifully, some pretty poorly. Some would up in a collision status, some were lucky enough to squeek by. But as Bobby Duvall once said about a different sport - he didn't slam into ya, he didn't bump ya, he didn't nudge you.
He rubbed you and rubbing, son, is racing.

However - These two weren't racing and that is my point - Even in the racing rules if you can avoid a collision and don't, your disqualified just as quick as the guy who hit you. No if ands or buts about it. These two are both equally at fault. Especially on an open lake in broad daylight.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 10/18/2005 : 16:33:37

Lets see Derek - how many of these do I have correct.

a canoe,
If it is the overtaking vessel,
the other boat is a starboard boat harder to the wind, (or to windward)
Or is under tow
or at anchor
is disabled the other one....???

Are you including the racing rules within the two boat mark without overlap going in?

dw

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 10/18/2005 : 20:31:01

Duane - you're not even close! The 6 are:-
A stbd boat overlapped inside by a port tacker before the 2-boat length circle at a mark
Anyone doing penalty turns
An over-early boat returning to start
A boat anchored, aground or capsized.
Derek

Edited by - on

sailorman
1st Mate

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USA
69 Posts

Response Posted - 10/18/2005 : 22:57:37

Notes from a cruiser. I was at the same lake on Sat. Lucky for me I have not been on Lake Lanier on a Sat. in over ten years. I normally work Sat. and sail during the week when the "idiot count" is somewhat reduced. I did not see the accident but this is what I did see. When I saw the race course being set up just outside my marina, I headed for the south end of the lake to get away. Before the wind picked up, I was under sail in a very light breeze. I had to endure boats motoring to the start area. (Now, these boats were under power and I was under sail.) I had to alter course three times to avoid near collisions with boats that were in too much of a hurry to get to the race. Two of them cut acrosss my bow so close I had to round up to avoid hitting them. One ran up behind me on my port side and then cut across my bow forcing me to do a 180 to avoid collision. When I "thanked him", I was told to "get out of the way, we're going to the race." And then two boats collided?- I can't imagine. You can talk about all the "overtaking, stand on boat, right of way" you want to. What is missing is common sense and manners. My two cents, and that is why I don't sail on weekends.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 10/18/2005 : 23:28:16

Our Commodore would be waiting at the dock for jerks like that and they would have their heads handed to them. There are far more non-racers than racers and that means the non-racer dues support the racers and they better never forget it.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 10/19/2005 : 07:25:18

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Derek Crawford
 Duane - you're not even close! The 6 are:-
A stbd boat overlapped inside by a port tacker before the 2-boat length circle at a mark
Anyone doing penalty turns
An over-early boat returning to start
A boat anchored, aground or capsized.
Derek
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Not even close? I got a bunch of them... I mentioned the overlap in my last quasi sentence. An over early boat would be, 90% of the time to leeward of those still racing (i.e. harder to the wind) and the other ten percent probably woulnd't be on Stbd. Anchored, aground or capsized would be disabled wouldn't it?

And a starboard boat never has rights over a Canoe...I just missed the penalty guy - and I'd probably be to far ahead of him at that point to have it even be an issue.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5913 Posts

Response Posted - 10/19/2005 : 09:40:22

That reminds me of an experience I had this season. While beating to windward during a race, the race committee boat (about a 40-42 foot sailboat) motored so close across my bow that it scared me to death (and I usually enjoy crossings that are a little close.) I expect other boaters to do stupid things from-time-to-time, but not the race committee, for crying out loud! He obviously had the throttle opened to the stops, and he barely made it across my bow. All he had to do to pass astern of me was to back off his throttle a little. You have to wonder what he was thinking. My guess is that he was trying to prove something about his skill, and, in his own way, I think he succeeded.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 10/19/2005 09:41:46

bbriner
Captain

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349 Posts

Response Posted - 10/19/2005 : 10:30:46

Duane and Derek
Don't forget these ! These are stand on vessels to a sailboat, regardless of the circumstances:
(1) Commercial Fishing boats, engaged in fishing
(2) Any ship with limited manueverability, ie a tanker in a shipping channel
(3) Any disabled vessel

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 10/19/2005 : 10:44:34

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by tompotter
 ...Then I heard it... BAM!!!! RIPPPPP, the 35' and 22' collided!...Luckly no one was hurt.

I don't understand it, there was plenty room all around them. I think the guy on the 22' must have been snoozing.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Inattention is possible, but some sailors purposely try to cut it close which sometimes results in mishaps.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 10/19/2005 : 11:21:41

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 ...the race committee boat (about a 40-42 foot sailboat) motored so close across my bow that it scared me to death...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
This one might be even better: Under sail one day in our 17' Day Sailer, we approached a 26' police boat dead in the water, watching the world go by... We were crossing maybe 25 yards off his bow when he suddenly hit full-throttle... Then, I guess, he looked ahead, saw us, and swerved hard, throwing spray into our cockpit and hitting us broadside with a big, curling wake. He then headed around the next point at top speed... So, who do you complain to about that?? (Incidentally, wherever the air horn was, I wasn't going to get it in time!)

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 10/19/2005 11:28:19

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 10/19/2005 : 13:02:22

Its that stand on jetty that I always avoid

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 10/19/2005 : 16:37:34

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 Its that stand on jetty that I always avoid

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Around here it's the submerged boulders that swerve in front of your boat and then claim they had limited ability to maneuver.

Edited by - on

bbriner
Captain

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349 Posts

Response Posted - 10/19/2005 : 19:02:56

If you (any of you) ever come to SF, send me an email and we'll go out sailing together. Come on, we'll go play chicken with an ocean-going oil tanker or freighter.. loads of fun!! Really gets your heart rate up there!! (jk)

I mean it... Open invitation!

Edited by - on

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