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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 250 Specific Forum

Calling all sand baggers

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Tom Potter
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1913 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/12/2005 : 21:50:35

I picked up six 50 pound bags of sand and some heavy duty plastic rap at the depot today with thoughts of trying to get Knotty Cat on her lines. Was wondering how much weight others have used to do this.
Planning to rap the bags with the plastic rap to keep the sand in the bags and stow them under the V berth, is 300# too much?

1997 250 TR WK (sold)
1984 O'Day 28 (sold)
1979 SISU 22
Bath, NC.

Edited by - on

cathluk
Admiral

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USA
513 Posts

Response Posted - 11/12/2005 : 22:33:54

We have 150 lbs in the v-berth. We started with 200 or 250, but took some out when we stowed some other things (like the dinghy) up there. DEFINITELY wrap the bags - I don't want to think of the mess if they ever got ripped open.

As for how much: start with 100 or 150 then see how she sails. Add a little, go sailing again, repeat until you're happy.

Edited by - cathluk on 11/12/2005 22:35:23

Al
Captain

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USA
269 Posts

Response Posted - 11/13/2005 : 00:19:04

I used 300# and it seems just right for me. The plastic wrap is a good idea. I used kitchen trash bags at first, and found them too slippery. With plastic <i>wrap</i> the bags will get some grip on each other.

If you have a thru-hull transducer up there, take care that the bags can't slide into contact with it. I used some small foam blocks around my transducer (I use foam the way Aryln uses bungees....!)

Edited by - on

atgep
Master Marine Consultant

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1009 Posts

Response Posted - 11/13/2005 : 05:13:21

Tom, Don't forget, this will affect tounge weight on the trailer. You will likely have to redistribute things inside to get the balance you desire on the trailer.

See ya on Thurs.

Tom.

Edited by - on

Tom Potter
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1913 Posts

Response Posted - 11/13/2005 : 09:35:59

Al,
One of my concerns about the sand bags is; does that added extra weight in the bow cause the stern to rise up? My outboard is just barely long enough.

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Al
Captain

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USA
269 Posts

Response Posted - 11/13/2005 : 13:31:04

I don't think there's anything you could do (flotation bags?) that would raise the stern on a 250

I've got the XL shaft on my Honda, and it ventilates occasionally.

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coldducks
Captain

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USA
342 Posts

Response Posted - 11/13/2005 : 20:53:14

we have 200 lbs.of sand in the bow, no problem with the motor coming out of the water, and we have the long shaft engine

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reuben
Navigator

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USA
202 Posts

Response Posted - 11/14/2005 : 11:06:23

We've got 240 lbs up there, which seems right. Right on the lines, and the long-shaft Evinrude 9.9 never complains.

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RSHOOTER
Navigator

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USA
101 Posts

Response Posted - 11/14/2005 : 14:08:56

I put three wrapped bags of Granite Chips in my C250WK. If the bags ever break I figure it will be easier to pick up. Am considering more weight or just keeping the water tank in the bow topped up.

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Bay Tripper
1st Mate

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USA
56 Posts

Response Posted - 11/14/2005 : 19:52:59

Bay Tripper has 2 60# tube sand bags in the bow. These bags fit in the groove by the hall and allow the middle for storage. The tubes have allow me to get better control of the rudder.

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Tom Potter
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1913 Posts

Response Posted - 11/14/2005 : 20:33:51

Well they are in, all 300# worth. I got a roll of heavy duty plastic rap(sticky on one side) from Home Depot and double rapped all six of the 50# bags. My only problem is the boat's on the trailer ready for a trip. I'll find out when I put her in the water how she sits. If Its too much, I'll make a new sand bar somewhere.

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River Harley
Navigator

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132 Posts

Response Posted - 11/16/2005 : 20:07:18

We have 200 lbs under the V-berth. It works well without excessive rise in the stern. Our motor has an xtra-long shaft.

River Harley

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JohnMD
Navigator

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USA
207 Posts

Response Posted - 11/16/2005 : 21:35:20

I've read all the theory about why you want to have your boat 'on her lines', but, can anyone tell me that their 250 really sails that much better since they put some weight in the bow? It seems that pushing my bow down 4 inches or so might even be offset by the extra weight I'm carrying around. Just wondering. Thanks

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Al
Captain

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USA
269 Posts

Response Posted - 11/16/2005 : 22:44:56

I sail my boat in the ocean, and from the first time I had it out, the bow seemed to "bob" over the swells, pivoting from the stern, which seemed to wallow a bit. The effect was not unlike a 1/2 ton pickup loaded with a ton of bricks near the tailgate. My dealer said to leave it as is, as any weight added would increase the wetted surface and slow the boat down. I figured if the hull's angle of attack was too great, that would slow down the boat as well, so the difference in boat speed would be negligible.

I don't know who was right, but boatspeed was not a primary concern for me, and I'm happy with the results of the 300# I added. The boat knifes through swells now, where it would have skittered over them before. To me, it just feels like a bigger, heavier boat, which makes me feel more secure in the ocean. In other conditions, like a small lake, maybe the weight, or that much of it, wouldn't work out as well.

But hey, what else can you buy for your boat that you can experiment with for such a small investment?

Edited by - on

JohnMD
Navigator

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USA
207 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2005 : 06:19:50

Good point (price of the experiment). I didn't think about how much it would affect the way the boat rides. Did it help offset some of the weather helm? Did you reset your shrouds and stays after you added the weight?

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cathluk
Admiral

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USA
513 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2005 : 16:01:56

Ours sails much better with more weight in the bow. The aft section of the C250 is very flat & the boat is rather heavy in the rear so ours was essentially riding with the bow up a bit & with the flat aft section contacting the water. We discovered, quite by accident, that the boat handled better when one of us was sitting on the bow. So we stopped storing extra stuff in the back berth & added sand up front.

It's easy to do your own experiments.

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Al
Captain

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USA
269 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2005 : 22:42:58

I only sailed the boat a few times before I added the weight, so I can't really say if it has an effect on weather helm.

I didn't make any adjustments to my rigging.

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2984 Posts

Response Posted - 11/18/2005 : 07:34:39

JohnMD,

The water ballast version though suffering a little of the same stern dragging, has the advantage of countering the weather helm by raking the center board aft. And, after the water ballast is loaded, it is heavier than the wing. I think repositioning weight forward such as extra batteries is a reasonable plan for it, and that extra sand bags are not needed for it.

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AADIVER
Admiral

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USA
966 Posts

Response Posted - 11/23/2005 : 19:21:39

Has anyone asked Frank Butler about this "problem"? Is it faulty architecture/design or what? What does Catalina say about it?

Edited by - on

SEAN
Admiral

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USA
772 Posts

Response Posted - 11/23/2005 : 21:22:02

I have 300# on my WK,It cuts through the waves nicely.A solid feel.

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atgep
Master Marine Consultant

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1009 Posts

Response Posted - 11/25/2005 : 07:49:33

Tom, Now that you have decided you like the new ride with the weight in the bow, it is time to consider relocating equipment and get rid of the dead weight.

The formula is weight x Arm = moment.

Lets assume the center of gravity or balance point is at the aft end of the keel. Looking at the 250 that would be my guess. You have 300lb 120 inches in front of the cg point. 300x120= 36000 lb inches toward the bow.

Now lets take something in the back and move it forward. I understand the batteries are aft on this boat. if they would fit in the bow, 140lb x 200 inches = 28000 lb inches towards the bow and you can get rid of the dead weight. This is a far better way to get the ride you want. It is all in the math.

Tom.

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frogger
Navigator

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USA
184 Posts

Response Posted - 11/25/2005 : 08:03:44

So where is the best place to position the batteries in a C250 WK? Both of my batteries are presently in the aft compartment and moving them would involve rewiring as well as moving the solar charging system. I have 200# of sand under the V-berth and have been thinking about taking it out.

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atgep
Master Marine Consultant

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1009 Posts

Response Posted - 11/25/2005 : 13:54:15

Not sure as I have a 25. My boat sits on her lines nicely at rest but when loaded with crew, the stern squats. You will have to look at the wiring as well. It should not be too big of a deal as the electrical loads are fairly light on a 25-250. Just some food for thought.

Edited by - on

Tom Potter
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1913 Posts

Response Posted - 11/25/2005 : 16:34:03

You're right about liking the new ride. The sand bags made a big difference, especially noted on Monday when we ran head in that wind and (I would guess) 3-4 foot seas. I liked the way she handled, she did pound a few times but for the most rode good. The wind didn't blow me around, but it did slow me to a craw a few times in those gust.

I have been giving some thought on moving the batteries forward. I would need to glass in a few boxes to hold them. By moving them forward that would have a two fold effect on the balance. I have two 27 deep cycles, guess they weight about 70 pounds a piece. So lets see, by moving 140 pounds from aft to forward, that's like adding 280 pounds forward. Is that right? If so, I could ditch the sand bags. That would make the rig a little lighter over all. I'm not sure that's what I want yet. I have noticed she handles her best heavy. I'll play around with it a little while longer before I do anything.

Edited by - Tom Potter on 11/25/2005 16:36:31

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 11/27/2005 : 23:36:23

Two questions and a comment for you all

1. What would be the net effect of taking the motor off the transom and stowing it below and forward - It would have to be at least a 125 lb shift - Its a pain, but a lot of racers do that (where and when allowable) 2. What exactly are you trying to accomplish by putting the boat on her lines?

3. - Before we got a long shaft motor we had to throw a little weight in the stern on long trips motoring. We used old 20 lb weights from my weight set. A lot cleaner than sand....

Edited by - on

Tom Potter
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1913 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2005 : 20:08:57

Duane
I can't answer for all the people whom have put weight forward but for me; The boat was very light in the front. Sitting at the dock only about 1 inch of the bow was in the water, put a couple people in the cockpit and the bow came out of the water. (I often wonder why Catalina allowed that to happen to the wing keels). By adding the weight (putting her on her lines) lowered the bow down in the water a good 3-4 inches (looks more like a WB now). So now I'm not cruising around like a Boston Whaler, instead I'm cutting through the water. The handling has improved as she turns better and the wind don't blow my bow around as easy anymore while docking. As for speed I don't know if it helped any at all. The rudder feels a little lighter and it just plain looks better.

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