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Yacht IQ or Sailnet?

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wmuchmore
1st Mate

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USA
56 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/02/2006 : 12:30:16

Hi Team,

Happy new year to all.

I'm looking to buy a Raymarine ST1000 autopilot and have been shopping the internet for the best price. The lowest price I found is $388.87 from a company called "Yacht IQ."

Since I don't know anything about this company, and never read any comments about them on this website, I'm wondering if anyone has bought from them and can tell whether or not they are good to do business with.

Thanks,

Mike Muchmore
#2083, "Calamity Jane"

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 01/02/2006 : 13:54:44

Sailnet is just emerging from bankruptcy... never heard of the other one so I can't comment.

Edited by - on

atgep
Master Marine Consultant

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1009 Posts

Response Posted - 01/02/2006 : 14:07:14

onlinemarine.com has it for a few dollars more and has $15 overnight shipping. I have had great transactions with them.

You may want to check them out.

Tom.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 01/02/2006 : 14:29:36

there is much more to a purchase than price

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 01/02/2006 : 16:50:17

Mike,

In SailNet's pre-reorganization days, I received both excellent service and price, but others have not. I'm not as confidant after their reorganization and haven't purchased from them yet (I'm waiting for someone else to test the waters

)

Although I haven't yet ordered anything from [url="http://www.defender.com"]Defender[/url], others on the forum have with positive feedback. They have the [url="http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|344|72126|29332&id=211583"]ST1000[/url] for $399.00.

(I have the ST1000+, but if my budget allowed when I bought mine, I would have opted for the ST2000)

Edited by - on

existentialsailor
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1180 Posts

Response Posted - 01/02/2006 : 17:23:41

I've spent at least $1000 with Defender and have never had a problem or been dissatisfied in any way. They tried very hard to give me portlight options when I was looking into that even going as far as recommending a brand they did not carry, because they thought it might be a better fit.
Sailnet, regardless of owners will never get any of my business again. Yacht IQ, I've never heard of, so can't help you. Check out the links page, the association gets a referral fee if you use one of those links.

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 01/02/2006 : 19:00:06

Defender Industries is good folks. If you run into a problem dealing with them (nobody's perfect), they'll do what ever it takes to make it right. It's a small family type business (compared to West Marine).

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 01/02/2006 : 19:29:59

I've ordered from defender and have gotten excellent service. If they have the best price on something you want, they'll do you right.

Edited by - on

wmuchmore
1st Mate

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USA
56 Posts

Response Posted - 01/02/2006 : 22:49:49

Thanks to all for the helpful advice.

Defender is the consensus, so I will go with them. I didn't realize the association benefits from using its links, so I'll go that route to place the order.

Don, I'll have to think about spending the additional $150 for the ST2000. Do our boats need the extra power of the ST2000?

Mike Muchmore
2083 "Calamity Jane"

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 01/02/2006 : 22:57:01

Just an FYI - Defender is not an affiliate that provides us any $$$$$ - but we do appreciate you all using the links none the less.

dw

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 01/03/2006 : 10:54:52

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by wmuchmore
 Don, I'll have to think about spending the additional $150 for the ST2000. Do our boats need the extra power of the ST2000?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Mike,

Do our boats need the extra power of the ST2000?...In my opinion, no, the ST1000 has ample power for use on a C25...With a balanced sail plan and a balanced rudder, the forces on the tiller are quite low...as some would say, "two finger control".

The reason I would have bought the ST2000 is that in my mind the ST2000's recirculating ball drive might be more robust than the belt drive on the ST1000. Additionally, I had to send my ST1000 back to the manufacturer for repair due to a design problem, which was also common to the ST2000. I've had my tillerpilot for a few years now so they may have corrected the problem.

If I were on a tight budget, I would still buy the ST1000, but if the budget could stand it I would buy the ST2000.

Edited by - on

eric.werkowitz
Captain

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USA
283 Posts

Response Posted - 01/03/2006 : 11:20:47

Mike,

I have an ST1000 and find it adequate for most sailing, however, I think the ST2000 has a quicker response (maybe someone on the forum knows if that is true). This will make sailing down wind with a following sea under autopilot control much more comfortable. I find my boat taking a very zig-zag path under this condition as the autopilot is always "behind the power curve."

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 01/03/2006 : 15:25:05

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by eric.werkowitz
 ...I think the ST2000 has a quicker response (maybe someone on the forum knows if that is true). This will make sailing down wind with a following sea under autopilot control much more comfortable. I find my boat taking a very zig-zag path under this condition as the autopilot is always "behind the power curve."
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Eric,

Yes, the ST2000 has a quicker lock-to-lock speed (4.5 secs vs 8secs), but even with this faster speed, I don't think it will help much in a quartering/following sea where anticipation of helm action is required. If it is tricky for a helmsman to steer, it will be almost impossible for the autopilot to keep up.

Have you tried adjusting the "rudder gain" on your tillerpilot to help counter the zig-zagging.

Edited by - dlucier on 01/03/2006 15:26:01

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/03/2006 : 16:45:11

I'm also considering the ST1000+ and ST2000+... (Defender is just down the road a piece.) Interestingly, with the faster response, the 2000 specs claim the same draw as the 1000 (.5 - 1.5 amps). With my balanced rudder, I don't need the extra power, but I'm looking at the other differences... What's this about a "belt drive"? RM's site says the 1000 uses a "lead screw and nut drive". I agree with Don about following seas--I don't know how a tiller pilot could hold a perfect course except with a full keel.

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 01/03/2006 : 17:09:49

It seems like somewhere along the line here we should have started a "ST-1000 vs ST-2000" thread.

Re: belt drive, lead screw and nut drive, etc. It's my (admittedly vague) understanding that the most significant, and maybe the only difference between the ST-1000 and ST-2000 is the final drive mechanism that moves the exposed ram. The lead screw and nut drive in the ST-1000 probably resembles stainless steel all-thread with a bronze nut and some grease. (With maybe square threads if you're lucky.) A belt drive from the motor spins one or the other threaded part, probably the leadscrew (all-thread). In the ST-2000, the nut-and-all-thread is replaced by a recirculating ball linear drive. I'm not even going to start trying to explain how that works, but the bottom line is much lower friction, lighter lubrication requirements, lower wear, greater precision, much longer service life, and other engineering goodness. But I think it's still driven with the same belt from the motor. And the last I heard, neither of them uses limit switches yet.

As I recall, a C-25 is right at the upper limit of what the ST-1000 is advertised to handle. (And I think we're all familiar with the typical veracity of advertising claims.) I went for the ST-2000, and have been very satisfied. As mentioned, the hard-over time is about half that of the ST-1000. And I sure wouldn't want it to be any slower than it is! As I recall, the thrust is also much higher. If you get in the way of a tiller being shoved full lock by the ST-2000, the force is impressive.

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

eric.werkowitz
Captain

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USA
283 Posts

Response Posted - 01/03/2006 : 17:22:53

Don/Dave,

I know it won't completely solve the problem, but I think if the 2000 has almost half the stop-to-stop time that it would have produce a straighter path in tough conditions. I haven't played with the gains since I first set it, as the manual suggests, for minimum overshoot during a correction. I wonder if that really is a gain adjustment or is really a damping adjustment on the feedback loop? If it were a gain adjustment I would think the response time would have to decrease, but I'm not sure why they would design a control system with adjustable gains and fixed damping. Of course, given the amount of control theory I still retain from school anything is possible.

Edited by - on

Downbucket
Navigator

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USA
188 Posts

Response Posted - 01/03/2006 : 18:07:06

Hi Mike:

I might be in the minority but for the most part I prefer to buy from a local business where I can talk to someone in person, bring something back if I have a problem and not have to pay any shipping charges. I have been very happy with West Marine here in Portland, Maine. In addition to great service and helpful and friendly advice they have always matched any price offered by a competitor. Just bring in a copy of the ad and no questions asked, they will sell it to you at that price.

Remember that "cheapest is not always the least expensive."

Good luck,

Will

Edited by - on

wmuchmore
1st Mate

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USA
56 Posts

Response Posted - 01/03/2006 : 22:22:07

Thank you all. Excellent well expressed opinions. I'm sold on the benefits of the ST2000.

Will, I agree with you completely about buying locally, and I too have been very pleased with the sales people at our local West Marine store. I will give them a chance to meet or at least come close to the competition on price.

Mike
2083 "Calamity Jane"

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 01/03/2006 : 23:15:51

If you buy from the West Marine link through our site, you can usually save money on shipping if you have them send it to the local store for your pickup - the local store also gets credit for the sale, we get credit for the click through.

Personally, I wouldn't consider West Marine a local merchant, but that's just me.

dw

Edited by - Champipple on 01/03/2006 23:32:21

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/04/2006 : 00:29:43

When I've asked WM to match a web-based price, they've matched the total including shipping--that's fair. But Defender is the "local merchant" here... My local WM has the Defender catalog at the register--I don't even have to ask them to pull it out any more--they do it automatically when they see me. I do like the folks at Defender, but the Evil Empire is in walking distance, so small items generally go to them.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 01/04/2006 : 06:57:13

Even though I'm in Ohio, I'd consider Defender a local merchant. They are the little guy. Having a web presence is not evil. Controlling the market and absorbing the competitions stores through a shady quasi merger is.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/04/2006 : 10:29:05

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Duane Wolff
 Having a web presence is not evil. Controlling the market and absorbing the competitions stores through a shady quasi merger is.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Agreed--I was referring to WM as the Evil Empire, not Defender. But WM and BoarUS appeared to be a cartel even before BoatUS decided to drop retailing... I haven't noticed any change. And all those stores that we can go into and inventory we can look at do cost something--although not enough to justify $160 for a C-25 tiller!

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 01/04/2006 : 10:34:13

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Duane Wolff
 Having a web presence is not evil. Controlling the market and absorbing the competitions stores through a shady quasi merger is.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Agreed--I was referring to WM as the Evil Empire, not Defender. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I was <s>reitterating</s>(sp?) saying it again...sorry if I made it sound the other way around.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 01/04/2006 : 10:50:42

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by eric.werkowitz
 I wonder if that really is a gain adjustment or is really a damping adjustment on the feedback loop? If it were a gain adjustment I would think the response time would have to decrease, but I'm not sure why they would design a control system with adjustable gains and fixed damping.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Eric,

In addition to rudder gain, the ST1000 also has a rudder damping adjustment.

Back to the lock-to-lock speed, in actual use, I'm not sure that the lock-to-lock speed is all that important. I use my autopilot almost every time I go out and engage it primarily to hold a straight line course. While the autopilot is engaged in this straight line course keeping, the pushrod may only move maybe an inch back and forth as it makes those slight course corrections. The time differential between the ST1000 and ST2000 to cover that inch of travel is about .3 seconds (assuming a 12" lock-to-lock travel). With this small of a difference, I don't think the lock-to-lock speed means all that much.

Edited by - on

eric.werkowitz
Captain

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USA
283 Posts

Response Posted - 01/04/2006 : 14:38:03

Don,

I agree the difference will be small during normal steering. I was refering to the more challenging conditions like running down wind with a following/quartering sea.

It's been a long time since I set up the Autohelm. I forgot there were two adjustments. I'll look into it.

Edited by - eric.werkowitz on 01/04/2006 14:39:30

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